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Sixteen years on the streets, living and working with the people of China, Jeff

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Wonderful to have Ian Hudson on the show today. Gavin Menzies’ books, “1421” and “1424” changed my life in that they helped to totally realigned my perspective on “accepted” history. You will not find a more fascinating and transformative true story!

Introduction

Ian Hudson, President of the 1421 Foundation

Ian Hudson is a scholar and best-selling author who has focused on ancient sea-faring civilisations and global maritime exploration. He has worked with Gavin Menzies since 2002, on book projects as well as a ‘1421’ exhibition in Singapore, and a TV documentary series, before co-authoring Who Discovered America – The Untold History of the Peopling of the Americas with Menzies in 2013.

He is a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, was an Associate Member of the China Maritime Centre at the Greenwich Maritime Institute, London, a “Next Generation Ambassador” for the Committee of 100 ( www.committee100.org ) and has lectured on his research at prestigious institutions in the UK such the University of Oxford, & the London School of Economics and Political Sciences, at Yunnan University, China, and at Duke University, USA.

Website: www.1421foundation.org

Email:

in**@14************.org

Gavin Menzies

Books

Books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Gavin-Menzies/author/B001IGJM9A

Legacy website with all of the original research:  www.gavinmenzies.net

Transcript

Jeff J. Brown: This is Jeff J. Brown China Rising Radio Sinoland and I am very excited to go across the channel from Normandy, France into Britain. And I have on the show today Ian Hudson, how are you doing, Ian?

Ian Hudson: I’m good, Jeff. Thank you very much for having me. Great to see you. Great to be here.

Jeff: This is a wild story. Back in 2019, I think it was I reached out to Gavin Menzies at the 1421 Foundation because I really wanted to interview him because his books practically changed my life. And then, I saw in the popular press that he passed away in 2020. And I said, well, that’s I guess I should have contacted him sooner. And then about a couple of months ago, Ian, who is president of the 1421 Foundation, reached out to me by email and we finally got together. So thank you so much for being on the show tonight.

Ian: Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Sorry, it’s taken so long for me to get my act.

Jeff: So you’re a busy man. Ian is president of the 1421 Foundation. He is a scholar and best-selling author who has focused on ancient sea-faring civilizations and global maritime exploration. He has worked with Gavin Menzies since 2002 on book projects as well as a 1421 exhibition in Singapore, and a TV documentary series, before co-authoring “Who Discovered America – The Untold History of the Peopling of the Americas”. He wrote that with Menzies in 2013.

He is a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society which has a very rich and deep history going back at least to the 19th century, and I think earlier, was an Associate Member of the China Maritime Centre at the Greenwich Maritime Institute, London, a Next Generation Ambassador for the Committee of 100 ( www.committee100.org ) and has lectured on his research at prestigious institutions in the UK such the University of Oxford, the London School of Economics and Political Sciences, at Yunnan University, China, and at Duke University, USA.

So this guy knows what he’s talking about. Ian, let me just ask you. It’s hard for me to believe that some people would not know you know who Gavin Menzies is. But just in case, for the fans out there who may not know the background, please give us a brief account of the great researcher and explorer Gavin Menzies.

Ian: Okay, so, Gavin, a very old dear family friend of ours. He joined the Navy when he basically went straight out of school when he was 16 and joined the Navy, had a career in the Navy for about 18 years, and ended up in command of a nuclear submarine. So he had a distinguished career and was a highly intelligent man. If you’re put in command of a nuclear submarine, you’re not some crackpot which a lot of people say he is, because he came up with this historical theory that I’m going to tell you all about. So, yeah, it’s important to know he had a great career in the Navy. He left the Navy.

He had a career as an entrepreneur, worked in entrepreneur, working in many different sectors. And then in 2001, I believe he decided to start writing this book. And he’d had it in his mind for many years, and he’d carried it out with his wife over his career in the Navy specifically. And then when he lived in the Middle East, they’d been to so many museums and exhibitions and institutes around the world.

They’d started laying the seed for this book and his book was all about how he was fascinated by the Middle Ages and wanted to compare what was going on around the world in the Middle Ages. And there was a chapter on England. There was a chapter on France. There’s a chapter on Egypt. There’s a chapter on what was happening in South America. And basically, he’d come up with quite a he said he admitted it was a very dry book and he wanted to popularize history.

That was always the thing. He wanted to be a popularizer of history. And this book that he created was a huge draft quite lengthy, quite dry. He and his wife went off on their 25th wedding anniversary to Beijing and were given a tour of the Forbidden City. And this was kind of a slightly new apology if my dog’s going to start making strange noises next door to me. He was fascinated by the Forbidden City the huge scale of it and the sophistication of it, and was talking to the guide about when the Forbidden City was inaugurated.

It turns out it was inaugurated in 1421, turns out also that the emperor Zhu De at the time was sponsoring this series of huge kinds of grandiose to a certain extent voyages of exploration. They started in 1405. The main protagonist of the story is Admiral Zheng He, who is a Muslim who was captured by the Chinese army when he was eight years old and taken to the imperial court, castrated, and served as a eunuch to the emperor.

And he gradually won the trust of the emperor and the emperor, as a result, put Zheng He in charge of this huge fleet of, I think, well, there were up to 600 ships, and up to 28,000 people crewing those ships. There’s a vast kind of floating city, there’s was a floating university. It had a floating market. It had everything you could name. It had horseships. They had grain ships. They had water ships. So they could sell the oceans for months and months without having to stop at land.

So anyway, Gavin came back from his trip to China, slightly reevaluated his book, and realized that there was an incredible story to be told about what was going on in China, and not least the comparisons between what was happening in China and England, for example, the level of sophistication, China had been tracking the night skies for thousands of years. They’d invented gunpowder, they’d invented the compass, they’d invented printing, they’d invented all of these fantastic things and I’ll talk a bit about that later because that’s what we talk about in the second book.

And there was a huge disparity between China at the time and England and France and all the other countries. China was just it’s a colossus. And so Gavin started writing a bit more about China. I’m sorry if I’m slightly waffling, but he sent this document about what was going on in the world in the Middle Ages. And he sent it to about 100 experts for checking. And one of these experts was a curator of a library in Minnesota the James Ford Bell Library, University of Minnesota.

She asked him if he knew about this map. It was called the Pizzigano map, and it was dated 1424, it showed Europe quite fairly accurately. But it had going out into the Atlantic. It had these strange islands that were plotted out on the far side of the Atlantic. And Gavin having been to those islands in the Navy on a boat. He could immediately see in his opinion that those islands were Puerto Rico or part of Puerto Rico, part of the Caribbean. And the next question was if that was the Caribbean drawn in 1424, how could it have been?

Who could have drawn it? Like, how can you? You know, we’re told at school that Columbus discovered the Americas in 1492. How can you discover a place for which you already have a map? And his research continued. And he found basically that the whole world had been mapped before the European voyages of discovery had started. So before Cabral and Diaz in the 1480s, before Columbus, before Magellan, before Vasco da Gama, before all these European greats who we talk about in schools around the world as these fantastic explorers.

And it was obvious that somebody else had got around the world and charted it before these guys. And they did it. They had to have a significant capacity not only did they have to have a good quality of a good number of boats, but they would have had to have a good quality of crew as well to actually be able to chart so accurately using latitude and longitude. So yeah, he was slightly gobsmacked and he decided to reevaluate his theory and started looking well, mate, I’m trying to think of the timeline, but I started working for him in 2002, and my first job for him was to translate some of it.

I studied Spanish and Portuguese. So I was translating some of the early Spanish and Portuguese maps. And the first accounts of the Spanish explorers who arrived in the Americas and described in their books seeing visitors who they say came from China or had visitors who had ornately carved boats and they had gold and silver, and they were wearing silk and they described them being a sophisticated race that was not the same, they were different in look and in culture to the Native Americans.

And so, yeah, there was suddenly this mound of evidence that was beginning to grow. But yes, there were, in fact, early Chinese voyages to the Americas. And so then, Gavin, he did this big talk at the Royal Geographical Society in 2002. He got a fantastic book deal. He was an unpublished author, and he got this a very sizable advance for his book, from Transworld, who made Global Publisher. And they’ve set a team up who helped him kind of weave. They turned the book into something a bit more readable because it was very dry and a bit boring, to be quite honest. So they made it a bit more readable.

I was helping with various things with the Spanish and Portuguese, and we had all these maps and stuff printed. So lo and behold, 1421 came out in 2002 and was published in the US shortly after. It was a different title. It was called Who Discovered in 1421 the year China discovered America. And then it got to number three in the New York Times bestsellers chart. It translated into, I believe, 29 languages. And we set up this website GavinMenzies.net which basically, wasn’t before the internet kicked off, it was about 6 or 7 years after the internet, as we know it started really making waves.

But Gavin I always slightly joke that he was in charge of a nuclear submarine and had his finger on the red button, but he didn’t know how to type. So I was always the one who was helping him with emails and, I helped create the website and we used the website to act as a kind of nexus point for researchers who, I guess the problem is it’s such a controversial theory that anybody could have discovered the Americas before Columbus. It’s so controversial that there’s always a huge amount of controversy and there’s always a huge amount of criticism.

But we were trying to create a community with this website, of community of people who believed in what we said and believed that’s often referred to as fringe historians armchair historians citizen scientists. I heard that one the other day, which I quite liked. And yeah, we’re trying to build up a community of that kind of people who agreed with us and who had that they saw that it made sense. But also they had carried out their own research. And we were inundated over the years and inundated to the point that we wrote four books total. After the first book, we wrote three more books.

So we were inundated with people saying, did you know about this? Did you know about this theory? Did you know about this book that was written in 1730, that told of the Chinese visiting Mexico? Did you know about these ancient carvings in Australia that were clearly Aboriginal carvings that show 4 or 5-masted ships, but they’re dated to pre-Europeans? All these like strange linguistic similarities, cultural similarities, and different types of art. You see the motif of the dragon throughout Asia and then in Central and South America.

Just a huge like, panoply of evidence/data. We shouldn’t call it evidence, because some of it we had to corroborate. I mean, we had to try and pick through it and work out what we thought was correct. And so that book came out in 2002. It did remarkably well. We set up a research team in London. Gavin was constantly away giving lectures. So I was kind of building this team in London. And then, yeah, we wrote three more books which I can talk about in due course. And he very sadly got Alzheimer’s in 2018 and Parkinson’s.

And he passed away two years later. So it was very sad. But what I did was I was very keen, like Gavin was very thick-skinned. So any criticism that he got, he would just shake it off. He’s like, look, I can’t possibly read every single email that get or every article that’s written about me. I can’t do it. I can’t read the thousands of reviews on Amazon. There’s not enough time in the world. So I’ve just got to concentrate on what I’m trying to do and keep going. But I was slightly different. I just wanted to try and secure some more academic backing for us because I thought it was really important.

There were some really vicious academics out there who hated us, and they’d spent all their lives saying that Columbus discovered America in 1492. So they were slightly put out of place by us saying that we think the Chinese got there before them. So I was trying to gain academic support. And in order to do that we got a really good kind of supporting committee. I’ve got letters of recommendation from all sorts of people around the world. People believe what we’re trying to do. But I set up the 1421 Foundation as a kind of entity in order to run everything. Previously, they’d all been run from the basement in Gavin’s house.

They’ve got a very nice house in London. But it was in the basement. So I was like, let’s set up the 1421 Foundation. It’s a US-based 501C3. So in the past, we’ve been receiving donations to it, and I’m actively trying to receive donations for it because we need to keep it going to perpetuate what we’re doing. Sorry, and I should say to your listeners that the website is 1421Foundation.org. I’m sure we can probably mention that again towards the end of this interview. But we have various projects.

And my goal from not even a selfish point of view, but something that I’ve been trying to do for the last probably 14, 15 years is to prove unequivocally that the 1421 theory/hypothesis is solid and that, yes, there were various ocean-going civilizations that crossed the oceans and arrived in the Americas before the European voyages of discovery. In our latest book “Who Discovered America”, we debate whether or not actually the Beringia theory of migration is that people came across the Bering land bridge 15,000 years ago.

We say actually, they were far more likely to have come by boat because it was quicker and it was more efficient, and they had access to seaweed and they had access to kelp, and they had access to mammals and fish to eat. So, the Beringia theory is potentially outdated, and I think new evidence has proved that anyway. But yeah, my goal was just to prove that some of these critics can do one because actually we have proof now, there’s unequivocal proof that man sailed the oceans and got to the Americas, got to Australia and New Zealand in boats before the European voyages.

So I’m not denigrating the people who arrived in Australasia and how they got there, nor the Beringia theory. But I’m saying that man has been a lot more sophisticated making use of the winds and the currents for thousands of years before the European voyages of discovery, before this kind of Eurocentric paradigm that Columbus and Christianity were the people who spread the word and who discovered and opened up the world. That’s rubbish, quite frankly. So that is what I’m trying to prove.

Jeff: Well, I’ll tell you what, Ian. By the way, you’ll be pleased to know, I still have my copy of 1421.

Ian: Excellent.

Jeff: I have the 2008 edition, and I think a lot of stuff was added to 2000, a lot of extras because you said they were finding more stuff.

Ian: We kept on editing, updating, and amending.

Jeff: So there it is fans. By the way, Ian mentioned I will have their website. I will have the book website. I’ll have Amazon. I have their Facebook. I have their email. So you can contact them after the show and if you’d like to find out more. And I actually had 1424. I loaned it to somebody, and the clown never gave it back to me.

Ian: That’s a shame. We’ll have to get you another copy. Would you like to talk about that 1434 and I come to your questions?

Jeff: Well, I can tell you folks that if you read 1434 is a little bit more speculative, but 1421 if you really have to be wearing blinders, you really have to have a telescopic vision to not see that all this, it’s just the evidence is just piled so high and it’s just so obvious that the Chinese made it to what we call the New World before the Europeans got there. And of course, Westerners are upset about Gavin and now Ian is doing it because it completely upends world history. I mean, it just completely it’s like it blows it out of the water.

And so obviously it really upsets people and people are proud and people are and let’s face it, racist, and people just don’t want to admit that the Chinese beat us to it, so to speak. And so yeah, just tell us quickly about the two. And as far as I’m concerned, they’re not even theories. To me, it’s just a well, the 1434 is a little bit more speculative, but tell us about 1421 which for me is a slam dunk. And then tell us about 1434.

Ian: Well, I mean, 1421, I’ve kind of talked about but the basics are that the world history that is generally taught at schools, it says that Columbus discovered the Americas or the European voyages of discovery opened up the world to trade. But they do talk about Zheng He in some of China, for sure. In Southeast Asia and India, they talk about Zheng He. He was a very famous explorer, but nobody in the UK or the US had really heard of him. I don’t think. I hadn’t for sure. So 1421, starts on this the question of how do you discover a place for which you already have a map?

It talks about China and how advanced she was and compared especially to other nations like England at the time. And then it talks about Zheng He and his life and what’s accepted in world history is that Zheng He had these seven voyages, but we’re told that he went to, for example, Malacca in Malaysia. He went around Southeast Asia and he went around the Indian Ocean. We know he got as far as Africa. We’re told he got as far as Africa because we can see in this book called The Illustrated Book of Strange Countries.

It shows he brought back pictures of sorry, he even brought back giraffes for the emperor. He brought back animals from Africa for the emperor’s zoo, and he brought back the rhino. And he brought back giraffes and zebra and we can see them in these pictures. But it also, these pictures also show some other weird and wonderful creatures that aren’t, for example, unique and could have come from South America. There’s one particular story where Gavin talks about this large, giant ground sloth called a mylodon that was around extinct.

Now, I think Darwin found the found a corpse in a cave site in South America. And there are all these weird and wonderful creatures that are described and also places that are shown on maps that weren’t described until the Europeans got there. We know Vancouver Island, for example, which Vancouver discovered in God, I’m not sure, 17 something, was described in an Italian map of 100 years before that as a Chinese colony. We’re kind of just delved into all of these amazing stories.

There are just incidences all over of strange animals cropping up of plants that we know that the Chinese, the junks at the time, had carried bananas and rice and coconut. They carried all these amazing plants and vegetables to stop scurvy so they could live abroad for many, many, many years at a time and types of pigs, for example. Pigs were kept in sties and dogs and all these animals that suddenly, and I call this like anomalous archeology. These animals crop up either in ancient maps or ancient drawings or ancient graves, and they’re just completely anomalous to where they should be.

Like, the turkey is a type of Central American pheasant. And that was on dining tables in Europe 50 years before Columbus supposedly brought it back from America. And it’s the same with we had this really interesting Chinese herbology showing all these amazing spices that they used in their cooking and in their medicine. And why is there a pepper, their peppers were supposedly introduced from the Americas after the 1492 voyage of discovery. How’s the tomato? How did it get to China before the Europeans introduced it to them? And it’s just there’s nonsense. There are so many of these incidents.

And then we set up the website and we got really into the granularity of it. And there’s for me, like the most important thing that a lot of the experts just kind of ignore is the DNA evidence, where recent DNA studies have shown that some Native American peoples, and they tend to be the ones that are seaborne by the coastal sites or by big rivers. They have high, statistically significant levels of East Asian admixture that come from recent gene flow. And it’s not from the Bering Straits. It’s described as a recent gene flow, which is not 15,000 years ago.

How do they get that admixture, Jeff? The analysis now can show that when it came, there’s like a genetic footprint. There are a number of diseases and parasites, for example, that are unique to Southeast Asia that are found in communities in the Amazon. For example, they’re found in this is I’m just dusting off my memory banks here, but there is a type of hookworm. I think it’s called ancylostoma diastema, which is found in the remains of a body from about, I think, a thousand years ago that has been preserved and it was unique to Southeast Asia.

And this was found in the Amazon or something. It’s like, how does this stuff happen if people hadn’t been there to visit beforehand? And we always said that, unlike the Europeans, the Chinese Zheng He specifically was an ambassador for peace. And I know that yeah, we always compare them to the kind of eco-tourism of today, where you say you take only photos, leave only footprints, and take only photos. And that’s pretty much what they did. But there is evidence around the world of these little not only from the DNA but of these little communities of Chinese people that were there before the European voyages of discovery.

So there’s a little almost a colony in California that was described as speaking Chinese. And this was before the gold rush and all that. Before it was very early arrivals to the Americas before 1492. Speaking Chinese understanding Chinese having similar cultural customs and values, producing similar artwork and all this stuff. One really cool story that I heard about quite recently was a and I’m in such a fortunate position I get sent emails every day with the most amazing stuff.

It’s just really fascinating that people have been carrying out their own research or they have family. And we’ll talk about Charlotte’s recent a bit. I think she found her grandfather’s maps in the attic of her house or something similar. But people just writing in, they’ve seen Gavin, who was on the TV a lot, who’s on the radio a lot when he’s doing his book tours. And they wanted to share the evidence that they’d found. And one thing that I got into recently, I went to go and meet this guy who’s based in Newfoundland, and he’s a Beothuk, which is the Native American people of Newfoundland. And Newfoundland is incredible. I don’t know if you’ve been there.

Jeff: I have.

Ian: It’s vast.

Jeff: I actually have. It’s huge. It used to be a country. He had his own stamps and everything.

Ian: Yeah, the very friendly people, and had a fantastic trip there. But I went to meet this academic. He is a researcher and he is a very intelligent man. And he was telling me that he’s a Beothuk. His family history is oral. History goes back 800 years. I think it’s been carried up through the centuries by folklore, through song, and through stories that his grandmother told him and her grandmother told her. And it goes back hundreds of hundreds of years. And he was doing some research in Newfoundland.

He was hearing about this shipwreck from you know, he read about it in the oral stories about this shipwreck that was there 600 years ago before the Europeans arrived. There was a huge wooden shipwreck, and they all talked about how they would see people on this wreck and they left them alone because they didn’t want to go and disturb them. But it was a huge wooden wreck. Then gradually the songs talked about how the wreck began to disappear under the water and they could still see the masts and gradually the wreck was no more. So he was intrigued. Then he married a Chinese lady.

And didn’t really I don’t think he didn’t hear about 1421, or anything like that. But he went to China and went to the National Museum of China in Beijing and was at the kind of folklore culture section I can’t remember which particular province it was from, but there was this exhibit and it showed all these totems and symbols and types of coinage. And he said he had this kind of epiphany. He kind of couldn’t talk and couldn’t. He was just his mind was completely blown because of all of the things he had seen in his museum in Newfoundland.

He had exactly the same totems and artwork and symbols, and he was just blown away. He’s like, wow, does this mean that there was a visit from China to Newfoundland however long ago? And that would explain the wreck, and that would explain some other wrecks in the area that he knows about. So he’s got on this complete on this mission. I want to go and meet him. And he’s like, he’s on a mission to prove that his ancestors would have met these Chinese people 600 years ago.

And, yeah, he’s seen as a lot of people in Newfoundland don’t believe in they want to believe that story because there’s a much easier to believe story that Newfoundland was the Beothuk’s were there. And then they got sadly decimated. So it’s always quite political. Whenever there’s a story like New Zealand, we have the in 1421 we talk about the fleets going to New Zealand and going to Australia before the Europeans. And there was research that was carried out there and kind of 2005 to 2010, I guess, by a surveyor called Cedric Bell, who carried out some incredible research.

And he believes that he found remnants of huge Chinese fortifications, barracks, mining activity, all sorts of stuff and we had some of the stuff carbon-dated, which was great. And it proved that, yeah, that was some word here that was chopped down in the 1400s. But he met huge resistance because the Maori have all these land rights over mineral rights, the land rights. They don’t want to have to suddenly give up any of that, because there’s going to be a Chinese claim saying that they arrived there before them. Same with Australia. Everywhere we go, there are doors or slammed in our faces, or sorry, I’d say doors were slammed in our faces.

But now, 20 years later, what is it, 2024? Going back to the 1421 Foundation, I wanted the foundation to be able to apply scientific rigor to our investigations. So it would be a way of shutting down the academics who were saying that we were hobbyists or whatever. I wanted to do everything professionally and do it under the guise of professional archeologists. So that was to give me and the 1421 Foundation the credibility that I wanted. So sorry for going back to 1421.

So that talks about these voyages of discovery that the continents that they explored, the maps that show how they got there? The Chinese maps, the European maps, and then the evidence findings of jade and ceramics down the Amazon and rice plantations, bananas, all that kind of stuff. And then it’s quite it goes into technical analysis of the kind of astronavigation and how the Chinese could have calculated longitude and latitude. And to be quite honest, I haven’t read it for 15 years. So I can’t remember how it ends.

But I would say that since that book was published, we then set up the website and we had all these people writing to us. And one of the questions was, why wouldn’t the Chinese have visited Europe? And we didn’t really have an answer to that. But then this Chinese scholar got in touch with us and said, yeah, there’s proof that they visited Europe because there’s an account of this Florentine polymath called Paolo Toscanelli, who was one of the Pope’s advisors.

He was also Columbus’s mentor, and he is famous for writing a letter to Columbus that said, Dear Christopher Columbus. I am paraphrasing here. I had a meeting, a delegation came from China to meet in the court with the Pope and me. He called them men of great learning and great sophistication of culture and civilization. He says they taught him all about geography, about how the world was a sphere, how you could sail. If you set sail in one direction, you could come back to the same place if you manage it properly.

You go around the world. And he said that they were hugely knowledgeable in mathematics and cartography and geography and science. And he was the one who showed Christopher Columbus a globe. He said in another of his letters, he says this is a globe that I was given by this delegation who came from China. So, 1434 was a result of the question, did they go to Europe? Then we carried out some research and we found out, yeah, we believe they did go to Europe because this guy Toscanelli said there was a delegation it could have been a 5 people delegation.

I don’t suppose it was a huge fleet that sailed to Europe. But I’m saying there were visitors there. There had been visitors coming from China for hundreds of years beforehand. But this was specifically in the Zheng He era. And we know that shortly after in Italy, the Renaissance kind of erupted. And we know that Da Vinci, for example, we know that Da Vinci. So he was a great, fantastic draw draftsman. But he didn’t really invent stuff. He kind of worked on other people’s pieces. He must invented some stuff, but he didn’t.

He’s credited for inventing, like the helicopter, the machine gun, the suspension bridge, canals and locks, and all these remarkable things. But actually, the Chinese had been doing it for hundreds, if not thousands of years beforehand, of which there is evidence because I went to Hong Kong and I went to look in these amazing Chinese encyclopedias where you can see pictures of armaments and you can see pictures. They don’t actually, there isn’t a picture of a helicopter. But they did. They knew about the physics of rotary motion for centuries.

And they’ve been using it in children’s toys, for example, they had mini helicopters. And yeah, the theory was basically did if the Chinese came to Europe to meet an audience with the Pope, did they hand over information? If so, what information would it have been and how would they have handed it over? Our answer to that was we thought there was a huge amount of information because suddenly there was the introduction of gunpowder into Europe. That was the introduction of the printing press.

There was the introduction of canals and locks in Italy specifically. So Italy had the introduction of mulberry trees, which then meant the creation of silk, which then meant the silk could be transported to Venice and traded around the world. So yeah, the Industrial Revolution in Italy, we say, was potentially sparked by this delegation who provided all this information. The information was provided. They had printed books and they had scrolls and they had encyclopedias.

They could have handed over had they wanted to that could have shared all this information. They could have shared maps, they could have shared. And part of the Chinese delegation’s mission was to impress other countries and bring them back to China, to bring them into China’s trading system and impress the rest of the world with how great China was. So this could have been a way to do it. And that was the second book. It came out in 2008, I think, I can’t remember.

And then we wrote a third book, which was called The Lost Empire of Atlantis, which is slightly changing track, but it was Gavin went on holiday to Crete and was learning about the Minoan civilization, who have their outpost in Crete, which is incredible, the palaces there, the huge monuments and buildings in Crete which were mostly destroyed in 1500 BC by the eruption of Santorini this volcanic island, Thera, which erupted in 1500 BC and destroyed, like this whole civilization in the Mediterranean and wiped out coastal Mediterranean and Egypt parts of Egypt. It was like this phenomenal cataclysmic event.

And they started excavating under through the ash in Santorini and found these amazing frescoes, which Gavin went to go and see when he was there. And these frescoes show these huge, probably up to 70m long ships, wooden ships with sails with rudders, with multiple oars. And Gavin suddenly was like, oh, possibly they were ocean-going ships. Maybe they had that capacity because, at the time this was 3000 years ago, 3000 BC, I should say. The Egyptians weren’t known as great seafarers.

They didn’t have the right trees for building ocean, building long large vessels. But, yeah, the Minoans were a sophisticated seagoing civilization. And there was a shipwreck off the coast of Turkey in Bodrum. So in the Museum of Bodrum, now called the I forget his name. I’m sorry. And the Uluburun wreck, which had. It sunk about 1500 BC. It was a bit like a kind of time capsule, I guess like all these shipwrecks are. But it is very well preserved and it had hippopotamus teeth. It had elephant tusks.

It had ostrich eggs. It had amber from the Baltic. It had all of these trade goods that it had been carrying on it when it sunk in the Mediterranean. And that gave you a kind of snapshot of where they’ve been traveling. But the controversy, the real controversy was whether or not these Minoans could have got all the way up to England, for example, did they get up to England, the coast of England, Spain, or France, Portugal, England, Scotland? Whether they got that far and then whether or not if they did, would they have crossed the Atlantic?

Why would they have done it? And there was copper that was found in the Uluburun wreck and it was called I think they’re copper ingots or oxhide, those strange-shaped copper. And the copper was analyzed by some scientists and it was found to be 99.9% pure, like very, very high-purity copper. When they compared this to other copper around the world, the only copper of such purity was the copper found in the Great Lakes. So the Great Lakes, the US, and Canada were known to have been mined thousands of years ago.

A huge amount of copper was mined from them. But a lot of the natives didn’t ever admit that they owned that they had mined that copper. They were mostly using the surface copper for their jewelry and ornaments. There was a huge amount of, like, proper industrial-sized mines being dug thousands of years ago, and the connection was whether or not the Minoans could have crossed they were very good at navigating at crossing large bodies of water. Could they cross the Atlantic and get to the Great Lakes and mined all this copper and brought it back?

And then it was just at that time of civilization when the Bronze Age began. So copper and tin that we know were mined in Cornwall. Yeah, it was kind of joint connecting all the dots. And there was I think this for me, what was really interesting was that I think Gavin was very visual, some of the evidence that he pulled together and we did it in our next book Who Discovered America, which I’ll tell you about now.

But it was like the visual elements of comparing a piece of art or an instrument or an ornament or something from one side of the Atlantic with the other and finding these samples that were exactly the same in function and form. But they were just like, how did one civilization create these coins that were made of very strange shapes? And then another civilization on the other side of the Atlantic did exactly the same thing at exactly the same time. Was there some kind of diffusionism where people came across and shared their ideas, and that was the kind of ethos behind it?

And there was, yeah, there’s a range of different kinds of threads for that particular book. But I think it didn’t, it wasn’t received very well because it had Atlantis in the title. And people, especially kind of academics, when they see Atlantis, they’ll just poo look down their noses and turn the next book to the next book. So that book didn’t do especially well and it wasn’t promoted very well, I don’t think. And then finally we did Who Discovered America, which was kind of effectively a not a compilation, but yeah, I mean, almost a compilation of all the stuff that we’d received in the 15 years since the first book came out.

So we plowed through all of this data that we’re still receiving this evidence today. But we drew a line and said, we said, look, this is clearly the Beringia theory is clearly very outdated because we know that the ice-free corridor they talk about. They talk about all these things to try and make the Beringia theory sound more believable. And it’s just, just poppycock. Why would you want to go and, like, travel across this barren, cold, inhospitable land? There was like it was a tundra. You couldn’t, like, find a tree, chop it down, and build a fire because there weren’t any trees.

You couldn’t, like, melt snow for drinking water because you couldn’t have a fire. It just wasn’t a very fun place to be. And we know some people were there and they survived and they did things, but we think it would be much easier to build a boat, however rudimentary it might be, and just sail in the currents and sail island hopping, going down the coast, kelp forests, seals and whales and all sorts of big mammals to feast on. Just a much easier way of doing it. And we’re told at schools that the first man came, first human remains were found in a place called Clovis, New Mexico.

So the Clovis theory is that man came across the Bering Straits and got their way all the way down to New Mexico. That was the first instance of, I think, the earliest remains of a human found in the New World. But recently and it’s way before it’s in the 70s, 80s, before our books, they started finding these there was evidence, actually, of early human habitation in South America, for sure. In Brazil, a place called Pedra Furada, there are cave paintings and rock art. There’s evidence of fires, human fires dating back 50,000 years in a place called I forget the name now in Chile where there’s another excavation dating back 30,000 years or so.

So predating the Clovis theory by 15,000 years, which is incredible. They were always these guys who came up with so much criticism and controversy that they were often silenced. And so we had our shot at it and we put together the DNA evidence. We put together all the incredible stories with Charlotte Reece’s maps. And other people who we’ve been engaging with who had found Chinese maps or they found Chinese research, Chinese accounts saying that people had got to the Americas for thousands of years before the Europeans.

So we collated that all into one book called “Who Discovered America”. And I think that’s been translated into three languages. And we haven’t done anything since then because I got involved with the 1421 Foundation. Gavin became ill, unfortunately. And so we’ve now got to a stage where I’m running the 1421 Foundation. We have various projects that are really exciting that I can talk to you about. And we’re looking to raise some funding in order to carry out these projects. I’m pretty sure if the ones that I’m confident are on are if we can get them off the ground, they’re literally going to be rewriting the history of the world.

So very exciting everything to play for. I need help getting more visibility for the foundation, which doing this interview will surely do. So, thank you. Thank you very much for that. And I’m meeting with lots of interesting people around the world who are all excited. A lot of them are very passionate about Cheng Ho. I’m meeting with people in Malaysia at the moment who are putting on some conferences. Cheng Ho, they have a very fond place for Zheng He in Malaysia because he visited there on multiple occasions, and there are shrines and there are temples and there’s a museum there which I help curate.

Jeff: And he was Muslim.

Ian: And he was Muslim.

Ian: Exactly. So the Malaysians are very keen. We’re doing some stuff with them. Yeah, there’s lots going on. There’s a really cool find that I was involved with. I’ve heard about it for about five years. There were some Australian metal detectorists in a place called Shark Bay in Western Australia. And they’ve been on the news quite recently. They flew basically they were doing some metal detecting, a very isolated part of the world. No one had been there for years. No one had done any type of excavation. And they came across and they documented it, this bronze figurine of a Buddha.

Jeff: And it’s like Buddha.

Ian: It’s a baby Buddha. And it’s unique and it has gilt and they took it to the University of Western Australia. And the guy who saw it was like kind of laughed at them and said whatever, your crackpots. He then analyzed it, and his analysis of the corrosion showed that it had been in Situ for at least I think 150 to 200 years. So a long time it had been in Situ. But that doesn’t prove that it was there. It could have been dropped by someone 200 years ago. It doesn’t prove that it came with the Chinese fleet. However, anyway, they did all this research. They flew the Buddha to England to go on this TV show called Antiques Roadshow, which you and your viewers may have heard of.

Jeff: I’ve heard about it.

Ian: Where people bring, they bring stuff they found to these experts. And this expert said, yes, it’s from the Ming dynasty. It’s an imperial treasure. It’s a world. It’s a unique world treasure. You have to cherish it and protect it at all costs. And they got in touch with me because we’re trying to build a bit of publicity on that story, whether or not it could have come from the Chinese fleet. The reason why I got so excited about it was because I’d been contacted separately by someone who had been diving. They had known about this wreck for years. It’s in Shark Bay as well. And a note of warning, you don’t really want to go diving in Shark Bay because of the name.

Jeff: It lives up to its reputation.

Ian: It definitely lives up to its reputation. Anyway, this guy, he contacted me. He’d sent him these images on Google. You can see them on Google Earth. They’re incredible. They show this, like, very long, wide wreck. It’s in about 5 to 10m of water, but it’s covered in coral and sand now because it’s old. And basically, it’s like 100m long. Nobody else apart from the Chinese would have built a wooden junk, a wooden vessel of that size.

You can see the dimensions and stuff. And it’s got you can see the watertight bulkheads it’s got in there. He knows it’s wooden. He’s dived on it. So, he got excited about the Buddha to find. He’s sure there might be other wrecks he’s looking to get funding to do aerial magnetometer. So you fly over the site with one of the planes from the mining. It’s quite a mining operation. Fly that over and find out what’s there because it’s completely middle of nowhere, isolated, barren space.

So if there is a wreck there or if there’s evidence of a wrecked vessel or fleet, it should show up fairly easily, one would hope. The problem there is yet again, a kind of government political nervousness about sunny China laying claim to a piece of Australian land because there’s a Chinese wreck there that came centuries before the Dutch. And yeah, so that’s a bit of a political hot potato. But that to me is like the smoking gun. It’s really powerful. Having seen the photos.

Jeff: Because the Zhang He had he first off you know you mentioned 28,000 people. I want people to think about that number because it is actually the equivalent of half the population of London, England, at the time. So, it’s like half of London is on this flotilla. I’ve heard 300 and something ships.

Ian: 600.

Jeff: Yeah. And they had what was called these treasure ships, which had the loot that had all the money. And those were over 100m long.

Ian: Yeah. Incredible. They’re like the length of a submarine that Gavin was controlling but made of wood powered by wind.

Jeff: Or a football pitch.

Ian: Exactly. So, yeah, it’s incredible. And to me, yeah, that is one heck of a story. If we can link the two of those, the Buddha, with this huge wreck and get some boots on the ground and go and dive on this wreck again. See if we can see what there is to be found.

Jeff: Is it right off the coast or is it out kilometers out?

Ian: It’s off the coast. It’s close. It’s really quiet. Yeah.

Jeff: Wow. That’s amazing. Well, I know Gavin had one that he found in San Francisco Harbor.

Ian: Yeah. That’s a really cool one. we talk about that in 1421. It’s a really interesting one. It’s a bit sad because I don’t think anything’s going to happen with it. Basically, there have been all these rumors for years, I don’t know how, but who came up with the rumor first or why it kind of surfaced, but of a junk sailing up the Sacramento River and being grounded up the Sacramento River? And it was a huge ship, apparently. And it was before the Europeans. And unfortunately, I think the land belongs to three landowners. So it’s a bit of an in-the-middle of it all. And they all want different things. And I should say the wreck is buried quite deep underground.

Jeff: Yeah, I remember that.

Ian: And there’s a river flowing over it, but they sent an archeological team there. They carried out ground penetrating radar and they found, as the readings show, there’s a mass of something that is underneath the ground. And they did a core sample drill. So the drill went down and it brought up a core that had samples of poppy seeds and rice in it, which is significant.

Jeff: What a coincidence.

Ian: What a coincidence. But even more coincidental is this type of wood called Keteleeria, which is of Asian origin. And they sent the wood off to a lab to get it analyzed. They said, yeah, it’s from Asia. And the carbon dating showed it to be from around 1410 A.D., which to me is like, what’s a slam dunk? But nothing has happened because it’s just so frustrating. So let’s get some water.

So yeah, there are lots of things like that that are exciting, controversial, and frustrating because we haven’t either got the money to do it further or we come up against a brick wall. And there are some things, like we talked about this wreck and what’s it called The Great Dismal Swamp south of DC. There was this book was George. So George Washington made a lot of his money reclaiming land. Part of one of the projects that was draining the Great Dismal Swamp they cut this channel called the Washington Canal. And when they were cutting that canal, the remains of this Chinese junk rose up out of the waters.

Jeff: Really?

Ian: We read it, and that was incredible in itself. And then in 1914, they decided to widen the canal and the US Army Corps of Engineers had to cut through this junk because it was a wooden wreck in the canal. They had to cut through it because it was in the way of that canal. So they talk about it in their archives. And then apparently there was a very sad plane crash and a military plane crash that crashed in the swamp. And the search party came across this wreck again in 1918, I think it was. So these were three instances. But then we got one of our archeologists, we got him to go and do some desk-based research. We’ve been sent all this data. We were really excited about it.

He went down to the archives, he went to Virginia, he went to Newport News, I think, and he just couldn’t find anything about it. And we just had to go. Well, that’s a shame. We’ll have to leave that stone. We’ll leave that door open, leave it ajar, and hopefully, we’ll find more data about it another time. But currently, we can’t find anything more about it, and we’re not going to go and do it. So you know that that’s that. So we are open-minded about our research. If somebody sends us something, we’ll read everything with open arms, with open eyes but we can’t just write it as fact if it’s not true.

Jeff: Well, I can tell you. I will show this to you all again if you have not read it, it’s an incredible read. And I mean, I just it’s like it’s I’m not dumb. I’m not stupid. And it’s pretty obvious that, that all the evidence in this is I mean, to me, it’s a slam dunk. Well, tell us about Charlotte Harriet Reece, because you all kind of got me to look into her stuff and I bought her books and read her books and she’s talking about how the Chinese crossed the Pacific in 2250 BC, and her information is just like, just as for me, just as bulletproof as yours. Tell us, are you all working together?

Ian: I heard from her last week. So we work with her for probably about ten years. I guess we went to go and visit her. We went for a lovely walk on the Blue Ridge path in the Blue Ridge Mountains. And I had a very nice time with her. And she came to England and we had a presentation at the Royal Geographical Society where she presented some of her work. So we’ve known her for years. We haven’t really recently we haven’t been in touch a huge amount.

I’m not actually sure if she’s still kind of actively doing what she was doing, but she had basically amassed a collection of maps from her father Hendon Harris, who was a missionary who was based out in Asia. I think China and Korea. And he’d come across these maps. He was confident that the maps that he’d found, which were these great circular maps, were maps that were tied in with this book called Shan Hai Jing, which was one of the world’s oldest geography, which is a Chinese book that had described all the places in Earth going back to 2200 BC, I think is the date.

And, she was confident that these maps were proof. And how did she think they were proof? Not only did she have them analyzed for what they were saying on the maps, but they showed places thousands of years before the Europeans got there. So they showed the Grand Canyon in great detail. They showed all these amazing Central American plants like cacti and stuff like that. They showed, I think, armadillos and these weird and wonderful creatures that just didn’t.

Jeff: They described the Rocky Mountains. And it’s just unreal.

Ian: How can you draw something on a map if you haven’t seen it? You can make it up, but you can’t see into the future. And you need to have been there to have done it. Anyway, so we had a good relationship with Charlotte, but we’ve not really been in touch a great deal recently. And I’d love to know where her research is leading her. I think her last book was actually a book about her father because he was just a kind of enigmatic man who had some amazing adventures.

I don’t quite know what path she’s going down at the moment. We’ve made some amazing. We’ve been very lucky to have some great friends who people who researchers who’ve become our friends over the years and they’re all over the world. And we have a great community of people. We have about 8000 subscribers to our newsletter. So if any of your listeners want to subscribe to the newsletter, they can do so at our website which is

Jeff: I am one of them.

Ian: You’re one of them. Good. I’m sure you’ll spread the message, Jeff, far and wide because the more people that whenever I send out a newsletter, I only do it every three months now. You get this amazing response. All these people who are suddenly like, oh yeah, I know. I found some maps in my attic. And you know, I had someone yesterday who 30 years ago, lived in Malibu. He’s a surfer. But 30 years ago, he used to surf in Baja California. And very following these amazing waves in very isolated spots.

And he found a cache of ceramics, Chinese ceramics just on this random beach in the middle of nowhere and didn’t really think anything of it. And he found some carved symbols in a rock, I think he didn’t think anything of it. He’s just like, that’s weird. And then 30 years later, he read 1421 and he’s now, I think, in his 60s and 70s, he wants to go back there and see if he can find it again. And he sent me a text yesterday. So it’s so exciting. I love it.

Jeff: Well, I’m blown away that the general public is providing you with probably more than you can absorb. But how can fans out there get involved in the 1421 Foundation’s work? I mean, are there any study groups or research projects, traineeships, and the like?

Ian: No, I mean, currently it’s a tough time because I don’t have a huge amount of support. It’s myself I have two other directors of the foundation, but it’s because it’s all volunteer-led, you know, you need people. I need people to help me really. I love you know, this is a passionate plea to anybody listening if they are interested in learning more and if they think they can contribute somehow, be it through their expertise, their time, or their money. I’m open to all help. I go and give talks around the world to try and spread the word.

I love doing interviews such as this. It’s been really fun. There are projects that we have a 1421 scholar who we’ve helped support throughout her career in China at a university in Hong Kong. I’m trying to build up a war chest so we can go and go after this Australian wreck. I’ve got a project in California if anybody’s in California, there’s all sorts of stuff. There’s some really cool stuff in California like ancient stone anchors that were raised off the seabed in the 70s. And you can still go and see them in a museum there.

I’m just always looking for people who can help. People who’ve got the time and inclination and we’ve got a really good selection of helpers. But I think I need to be a bit more systematic or a bit more rigorous in creating new research groups or programs we do want the three pillars of our foundation research, education, and exploration. So the research that we’ve done very well, I would say, and we’ve got 20 years of research. We had it all scanned. We’ve shared it with the University of Yunnan.

So we had a kind of collaboration with the University of Yunnan. The research bit is underway. The education bit is how can we go to schools and teach the kids that actually China did these wonderful things centuries, years before the Europeans. So there’s the educational bit and then the exploration bit, which is the stuff I find really cool, which is let’s go and get some funding together and go and survey a site in Australia that we think has a shipwreck on it. And how do we go about doing that? Who’s going to finance that?

So there are three ways people, three kinds of pillars that people can get involved with or they can just set up a phone call with me and talk through how they can help. I have a lady who got in touch last when I sent the last newsletter, who is a ceramicist, and she’s been blown away by similarities between Chinese and New Mexico Native American artwork that she’s found. She’s like, wow, this is incredible. So she’s creating a project. I think that’s going to explore the similarities of Chinese and Native American art. And yeah, there are lots of things going on. I don’t have the bandwidth to do it all myself. And I need I’d love help if anybody out there is listening and has some spare time and inclination to get involved.

Jeff: Yeah, an exploration is expensive.

Ian: Yeah, unfortunately. The thing is it’s not nowadays like I’ve been working with a team of some highly respected robotics, underwater robotics engineers who have developed a system now that instead of where it used to be, you’d probably spend, I would say probably 1 million pounds or something to hire a vessel with a submarine and go and do all this stuff and do a proper survey. He’s got guys who are building these little they’re called eco subs. They’re the tiny size of, almost a couple of tins of baked beans with all this amazing robotic equipment and data gathering equipment, and you can just drop it off the side of your speedboat. Let it run for eight hours, and it’ll pop up with a GPS later, and you go and pick it up. And that costs thousands. It’s brilliant.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s amazing.

Ian: It’s game-changing.

Jeff: Miniaturization.

Ian: Yeah.

Jeff: So that’s really unbelievable. Well, folks, I’m telling you, you really I mean, it’s a fun read anyway. I mean, it almost reads like a thriller. And so, if you like Dan Brown and The Lost Symbol and The Da Vinci Code, you’ll really like 1421 and 1434, but it’s real science. I mean, it’s like, this is the real deal. So I really encourage people to read it and have decency. Every time someone talks to me about Columbus, I say he didn’t discover anything. He thought he was in China. And he was in the Caribbean.

Ian: In the Bahamas.

Jeff: Yeah. He didn’t know what the hell he was doing. And then not to mention he massacred and his followers massacred millions and millions of people. But it’s just it’s fun. I encourage you to sign up for the newsletter. I have the email info. I’ll include that on our interview page and

in**@14************.org











I think it is.

Ian: Correct.

Jeff: You got the Facebook, you got the newsletter, you got the websites, you can buy the books.

Ian: Yeah, we’ve got two websites actually.

Jeff: So yeah, get the original one.

Ian: Also recently just in case you have listeners in the UK, we’ve also earlier as last year now we were accepted as a registered UK charity. So we’ve set up a UK foundation and this is to honor Gavin. It’s called the Gavin Menzies Research Foundation because the UK Charity Commission wouldn’t let us use 1421 in the title because they said it was too controversial. It’s ridiculous. But we now have a fully legitimate UK charity that is going to be the kind of academic any funds that we raise for it will be spent on laboratory analysis. We think just to really I’ve always said I want to prove this theory one way or the other. I’d like to prove Gavin correct. And the way we do that is through laboratory analysis and scientific rigor. So, yeah, that’s another string to our bow.

Jeff: You can tell how the establishment is scared shitless of 1421 and 1434 and Charlotte Harriet Reece and everything because it completely negates the Western superiority and the Western technology and the Western we’re number one. We’re the best. We were the first and so it would just shatter. It would shatter Western civilization and the Western empire if people started talking about what the Chinese discovered in the New World. I’ll try to find it. There was actually a tweet on X that I saw during Columbus Day in the United States, which I think is October.

Ian: October the 10th, I think.

Jeff: Whatever the second Monday of October. And this guy just listed all. It wasn’t just the Chinese, he listed all these Polynesians and these Micronesians and all these other civilizations that have. And you talk about that would be another interview. They have been crossing the oceans for millennia.

Ian: Yeah, exactly.

Jeff: And, so it’s not just the Chinese, it’s just it’s been like a superhighway for thousands of years. So well, Ian, anyway, and this has been fun. Thank you very much for taking the time to regale us with all these amazing stories. And again, I really encourage people to read 1421 and 1434 if they have not already. And I’m going to get that other book, the one you talked about that you all did in 2013. I didn’t know about that one.

Ian: Who discovered America.

Jeff: It’s called Who Discovered America. And I’ve got Charlotte Reese’s book. I got her a DVD with the map and everything. And it’s really it’s just it’s fascinating and it’s true. I mean, when you read it, it’s true. I mean you know it’s true even though you may not want to admit it. You know it’s true. So anyway, thank you so much.

Ian: Thank you very much, Jeff. It’s been a pleasure.

Jeff: I always transcribe my interviews because I learned years ago that some people listen, some people watch and some people read and they’re like oil, water, and sand. They do not mix. And so I converted it into the transcript. And then I send it to an editor and he cleans it up. But It’ll be probably maybe in a week he’ll get it done. And I’ll send you the link, and maybe you all can share it and use it on your website. All right.

Ian: Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Jeff: I will give you a Buddhist bow and talk soon. Bye-bye.

Ian: Take care. Thank you. Bye-bye.

###

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https://www.amazon.com/Mr.-Jeff-J.-Brown/e/B00TX0TDDI

Praise for The China Trilogy:

https://chinarising.puntopress.com/2018/06/30/praise-for-the-china-trilogy-the-votes-are-in-it-r-o-c-k-s-what-are-you-waiting-for/

Why and How China works: With a Mirror to Our Own History

44 Days Backpacking in China: The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass

China Rising: Capitalist Roads, Socialist Destinations

 

 

 

 

 

 

BIG Red Book on China: Chinese History, Culture and Revolution

Read it in your language • Lealo en su idioma • Lisez-le dans votre langue • Lies es in deniner Sprache • Прочитайте это на вашем языке • 用你的语言阅读

Wechat group: search the phone number +8619806711824 or my ID, Mr_Professor_Brown, friend request and ask Jeff to join the China Rising Radio Sinoland Wechat group. He will add you as a member, so you can join in the ongoing discussion.

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