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Billy Bob: Good morning, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us on the Blowback Roundtable. I have a couple of great guests with us, and our usual co-hosts aren’t with us today. Ben, hopefully, may pop by a little later, but I’ve got Jeff Brown from Normandy, France, and Leo Zhao is in Berlin, Germany. Jeff, could I trouble you to tell me a little bit about yourself so our viewers know where you live and what you do, about your work and stuff like that?

Jeff J Brown: Yeah. I’m a French-American dual citizen. I live in Normandy, in Cherbourg. I lived in and worked in China for 16 years and it’s my second home. I read, speak, and write the language. I wrote The China Trilogy. I am the founder of the Seek Truth from Facts Foundation. I have China Rising Radio Sinoland as my platform, my website and I also have another website called China Tech Newsflash. And I’m also a co-founder and the curator of the Bioweapon Truth Commission and I’m really happy to be on this show with Leo tonight because he’s a great friend and a comrade and it’s a pleasure to be with him tonight. So, thank you.

Billy: So, is it an honor for me, Jeff, to have you on? I became familiar with your work five years ago, or maybe even more than that, but your book about “China is Communist Damn it”. That was great and eye-opening when I was having my political awakening less than a decade ago, China’s figuring things out. There are so many narratives about China and it’s hard to figure out the truth from facts, kind of like your other project. But I think if somebody is genuinely honestly interested, they can get to the bottom of things despite all these false narratives. But you and Godfree Roberts and a lot of the members of the Chinese writer’s group were very helpful and helped me to discern truth from facts. So, it’s an honor for me to have you in the program. Thank you very much. Leo, it’s also an honor, but you’re always here, so, I don’t I’m not gushing as much about you, but thank you guys both very much for coming.

Jeff: Oh, my pleasure.

Leo Zhao: Very nice to be here. Thank you.

Billy: So, these are just very interesting times like the times that we’re living in right now are historic and momentous. You can’t overstate that enough. Where do you want to begin? So, I like to begin with the title of my program. The title of our program today is Genocide Myth and Reality. You know, there’s a real, actual, legitimate genocide going on right now before our eyes. And yet the West is not only just silent about it, but it’s supporting it. It’s enabling it. And then not long ago, there was a fake genocide that everybody in the West wanted to promote and get everybody agitated about and riled up about. And it wasn’t even an actual genocide. So, how can we understand that? How can we rationalize these two different narratives and what’s going on? Leo.

Leo: Well, I would just like to ask all of the liberals who buy into the fabricated genocide in Xinjiang, China, for which all of the Muslim majority countries have applauded, have denied. All of the Muslim-majority countries in the world have applauded China’s response and solution to the very real problem of jihadist separatists’ fundamentalist terrorism in China. But I would just like to ask all of the liberals who are pro-Palestine because this issue has been very well exposed in the West and a lot of information has come out over the years due to the hard work of Palestinian activists and many other things, and also just the fact that it’s been going on for 75 years. So, Western leftists and progressives know more about Palestine, and there’s a significant faction that is pro-Palestine. But most of them buy into the fabricated fake genocide in Xinjiang. I would just like to ask all of these people and some of my friends and former friends, how they make sense of all of the Western States absolutely supporting 100% using the same language as they do Ukraine all the way whatever it takes, we will support Israel. Supporting this literal genocide, gruesome, brutal, thousands of people are killed a day, injured, and killed a day right now. How do they square that with the Western states supporting a full-on genocide in front of the eyes of the world, the cameras of the world, and the rivers of tears that they cry for Muslims in Xinjiang? I mean, it’s literally no amount of mental gymnastics can square that. It’s literally these same states crying for Muslims in Xinjiang, and they at the same time support the genocide of Muslims in Palestine.

Billy: Yeah. I don’t know how they do it. And you know what? We should have invited a liberal here, but we don’t have one. But that’s the problem. That’s the problem with liberals and it’s the hypocrisy of Western imperialism.

Jeff: I would just like to say that this whole Xinjiang thing, the CIA with George Soros created the East Turkmenistan free Republic to supposed to a with a baby with a sky-blue flag and everything. And of course, they’ve got offices in Washington and London and Paris and Berlin, and they get millions of dollars and NGO money and want to one of theirs. They have a flag and a website, and one of their quote representatives went to New York at the UN. And in the empty assembly hall of the UN, it could have been at 2:00 in the morning for all I know gave this speech proclaiming that at that point I think they were saying 200,00 or 300,000 Xinjiang people were living in gulags, blah, blah, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. That was taken. Unfortunately, all that gets registered in the United Nations log book as an official speech. The next day, of course, the lockstep brownshirt Jackbooted Western media took it everywhere, thousands of outlets around the world simultaneously. And it wasn’t before long just blasting out genocide gulags in Xinjiang. That’s how the West works by the time they get finished, you know, it had been inflated to 2 million. And as Leo pointed out, every majority Muslim country has visited Xinjiang and loves what China is doing. There are 25,000 mosques in China. Well, yeah. Well, 25,000 total. There’s I mean, don’t know how many there are, but most of them are in Xinjiang about 20,000. There are six of them in Shenzhen, which is about as far away as you can get from Xinjiang. My wife and I lived 200, 300m from a mosque in Beijing. If you’re a Muslim, you can pray. So, anyway, I actually haven’t published it yet but a guy from the US consulate last year was having a meeting, a trade meeting. He was in the commercial, the trade portfolio. One of the American businessmen raised his hand and made a complaint about the fact that they had banned cotton from Xinjiang because he was obviously in the clothing business or the textile business, and he was not happy. Well, this guy with his Chinese employee from the US consulate in Guangzhou was caught saying in front of everybody. “Listen, we know it’s not true what’s going on? And this is not really, really going on in Xinjiang. We know it’s not true. But we need to use this to put pressure on the Chinese government for regime change.” And he actually said that in this group in this commercial meeting on Wikileaks. There are cables from the US Embassy in Beijing back to Washington clearly stating, it’s a lie. It’s a lie. They know it’s a lie. So, everybody knows it’s a lie but don’t tell that to CNN and BBC and the Washington Post and what I call the Big Lie Propaganda Machine. It’s not the truth that matters. It’s to destroy the communist socialist way of life of the Chinese people. That’s the goal. Nothing else matters.

Billy: So, it’s interesting how they use the pretext of this UN speech. And that gave a license for all the Western media the whole apparatus to shift into gear and start proliferating this narrative. And that’s exactly how it works. And it works, you can look at any number of false narratives that the media just runs with, and it’s always there’s a new one every day it seems.

Leo: Yeah, facts don’t matter. It’s about emotion. It’s about a feeling that they create among Western populations to be against China to have an emotional response to communism, to socialism, and to China. I mean, the facts are very easily verifiable. Everything that we are saying, Google, anyone who has Google can Google how many mosques are in China and in Xinjiang. Thousands and thousands. Anyone with Google can see I mean, new Uyghur fashion designers that just made a big splash in the fashion industry in Asia. There are these amazing photos of brand new or not brand new, but like new stars in the fashion business, the runway shows in Xinjiang, there’s the thriving pop music, and electronic dance music culture in Xinjiang. There’s new pop music coming out of Xinjiang that sounds like a Turkish-Chinese version of Depeche Mode some of the songs, some of the songs. And it is a really good music. I’m a deejay myself. I play some of it in my sets and I have some of it uploaded on my SoundCloud. But it’s just, I mean, remember the amazing Jewish pop music industry in 1930 in Germany? It did not. It doesn’t exist. I’m making a fascist sarcastic joke. I mean, people who are so oppressed that they are making next-level 21st-century hyper-modern, traditional, and traditional dance music. It’s just ludicrous. And tourism has bloomed in the past five years. Something like 2 million people I don’t remember the number of people visiting Xinjiang every year. And so, the facts are out there. There are hundreds, thousands of videos on YouTube. People uploading YouTube can delete them because many of the Xinjiang accounts have been deleted by YouTube of Xinjiang Uyghur residents showing what their daily life is. And just deleted by YouTube. But there are still hundreds, thousands of videos of people celebrating Muslim holidays, dancing in the streets. I mean, just pure good vibes. Just like hundreds of people dancing to their traditional music in the streets, smiles everywhere. Now, imagine the mood in the streets of a place where people are oppressed, systematically oppressed. Never mind concentration camps and genocide. Like, let’s just say that people are systematically oppressed. It would be what would the streets feel like.

Jeff: You must be talking about Europe and the United States.

Leo: You would feel like Detroit. Like that’s all. And just sorrow and loneliness and the streets would be just but watch these videos from Xinjiang. There are hundreds, thousands of them.

Billy: So, what was going on? We already mentioned earlier that there was a separatist group that was being funded by the US and supported and they had an ideology. They had one of these ISIS-like, intolerant, Wahhabis non-Muslims means they called themselves Muslims, but it’s a perversion of Islam. And this was the ideology that the US was promoting and funding. Now, I’ve heard that Uyghur Muslims have been practicing winemaking in China for a thousand years. And this new strain of ISIS like Muslims was chopping the hands off of Muslim winemakers because they didn’t appreciate them brewing alcohol or making wine. So, it’s not like these separatists had had broad-based support in the province of Xinjiang. So, this movement that the US was promoting was engaging in legitimate acts of terror. And there were many big, huge terrorist actions that resulted in hundreds of deaths. So, during the Olympics.

Jeff: My wife and I were living there when it happened. We were living there in 2010, 2012 during that period when you knew these blacks, they were training them in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other countries. And that is no man’s land out there. I mean, there’s no way you can guard the border. I mean, there’s the Tarim Basin and there are mountain ranges and even Afghanistan physically connects with China at the Khyber Pass. So, it’s impossible to guard the Chinese border. And these people were coming in or there was, oh, we have Quinn Ming. Yeah, we were in Kunming where they were in black suits and turbans and stabbing people with knives and swords. Well, at that point even, I wrote about this. They realized that all that Saudi money, all that Wahhabi money pouring into all these thousands of mosques in China was poison. And that they were being infected with Wahhabism extremist Muslim ideology. And it’s not just Muslims. There are Catholic extremists. It’s not just an obvious Jewish extremist too. And so, anyway, they went in and they got into all the mosques, got rid of all the ideology out of all the mosques. Realizing that they really couldn’t guard the border that well, they decided to internally make people reject it. For those people who got to Kunming, they had to have help internally. They didn’t just get on and I mean, they had to have help. And so, the Chinese government decided to really push nationalism, patriotism, civilizational behavior et cetera. Massive campaigns. And that’s why they were using these photographs of people in a classroom who were learning about civilizational China, et cetera. And using those photos to say they were in prison camps. Well, I can’t remember when the last one was. Kunming was one of the last big ones in I think in 2012 or 2013 or something like that. How many internal terrorist attacks have China Muslims inspired? Well, actually, any other than some disgruntled parents and stuff that does happen where a guy goes off and stabs some kids at a school and stuff, but that’s more mental illness than anything else. But in terms of organized Muslim terrorist acts in China since 2013, how much has China with 1.5 billion people and as big as Canada in the United States? How many attacks have they had?

Leo: More than 2000 since then.

Jeff: 0. You don’t think the Uyghurs don’t like what is going on? Do you think they liked all those attacks and all that crap? The Uyghurs are loving it. They’re getting rich. Their annual growth rate is like 10% a year.

Leo: Yeah. So, all these videos of how developed and rich Xinjiang has become, how prosperous I mean, according to the UN and according to Human Rights Watch, there has been no abnormal influx of refugees from China to any of the surrounding five Muslim majority countries that border Xinjiang. It’s a bus ride away you were talking about. There’s no way to patrol the borders. It also goes the other way. Like if Uyghurs wanted to escape China, they could very easily just take a bus.

Jeff: Or walk across the border.

Leo: Exactly. There are five Muslim-majority countries that border Xinjiang and since the 1990s, up until the educational and economic development program which eradicated the problem, there were more than 2000 terrorist attacks in China from these CIA, NED ultimately funded extremists. I have to point out that one of the educational programs of the Communist Party in eradicating this problem was to read the Quran, to teach the Quran to people who are infected with Wahhabism and extremist Islam to show them like, no what you believe in is a sick, perverted version. That’s not Islam. So, reading the Quran was part of the educational program that China implemented.

Jeff: I just want to point out that before they started this massive campaign in Xinjiang and there’s nothing wrong if you want to call it reeducation, fine that has Orwellian overtones for Westerners. But the people needed to be reeducated. They needed to go back to school, like Leo’s talking about. And before these terrorists would infiltrate across through the mountains and everything. Well, there were enough sympathizers in the country who would listen to the crap that could get them to cities like Beijing and Kunming and Guangzhou and other places like that. Now, if those guys try to come across, they can’t get a football field. Further inside China because the Xinjiang people are going to go, hey, here they are. Come in and get them.

Billy: So, it’s a successful response to this legitimate problem. If the US was going to be consistent with how they’re dealing with Israel, they would have declared openly. China has a right to defend itself, and we’re going to ship all kinds of arms to China so they can carpet bomb the province. That would have been consistent from the West. But instead of doing that, they want to pretend that this tremendous response, the correct response to that kind of thing is really to flood the province with opportunity and prosperity and flood it with development and money for industries and to create jobs, to educate the people, teach them to trade like that’s the best response you could possibly do, win hearts and minds. And that’s what they did. But the US claims that’s a genocide meanwhile, Israel has a right to defend itself. And you know, we’re going to hand them all the bombs they need to carpet bomb, Gaza. It’s so evil.

Jeff: Especially with the Belt and Road Initiative. Now Xinjiang is between East China coastal China and the rest of Asia or Russia and all points beyond all the way to Europe. Xinjiang is now just, I mean, throbbing with economic activity because it has become a nexus for all the railroads and other electrical high-power lines, telecommunications, and everything spanning across Asia. I’m going to go back on my next trip. Maybe not my next trip, but my trip after I’ve been to Xinjiang. And I want to go back and maybe spend a month there and do a report. So, I will go.

Billy: Yeah. Please come back to our program and share what you saw. So, that’s exactly right. Their future, I mean, right now, the efforts of development and bringing prosperity have been tremendously successful. They’ve won hearts and minds. But this is only the beginning. Like I mean, because of their location, their geographic location right at the beginning of this Belt and Road going all over the planet, the future is super bright. I mean, for the people of that province. And again, that’s the proper way to deal with these kinds of problems. And what if Israel had just flooded Gaza with development and aid? Do you think there would be people trying to break out of that concentration camp and kill Israelis? I don’t think so.

Leo: No, no. I just want to point out also the same thing with Tibet and the same thing with Mongolia. Something like 86, 90% of Tibetans speak the Tibetan language and can read and write the Tibetan language. And it is taught in the schools. By contrast, how many Cherokees in the US speak their original language? Also, just to zoom out, this has always been the socialist way of doing things giving people ethnic minorities not only autonomy and sovereignty, giving them self-determination, education, and economic development. I’m talking about the Soviet Union all of the ethnic minorities under the Soviet Union enjoyed massive economic development. Completely opposite the policies of the Tsarist regime in Russia before the communist revolution completely overturned that. The Soviet state funded the creation of alphabets for many of the ethnic minority languages in China.

Jeff: China too.

Leo: China as well. Massive funding for revival of and protection of ethnic minority cultures. This is consistent with all of the socialist countries. And the West has always told lies about socialist countries and how they are. Right now, in Berlin, it’s absolutely sick. I personally know people from, in particular, Borat. One Borat, who is a successful artist’s invited to Germany, and he lives here now, he’s given grants to produce, shows about the colonization of his people by the Soviet Union, by Russia. It is absolutely disgusting. And this guy gets a lot of love and a lot of money for doing this stuff. And he’s just like, I’m like, okay, right here on Wikipedia. It even says that your language, the Buryat language, the script was created and funded by the Soviet Union. So, what is that cultural genocide like? I don’t how and he has no answer. He just said, well maybe they funded our language, but they oppress us.

Jeff: I do want to point out that. I call the Chinese government Baba Beijing because it’s paternalistic, it’s Confucius and very paternalistic. So, Baba Beijing when the CIA rigged the attack in Lhasa, the capital of Tibet in March of 2008 as a way to try to trigger a massive boycott of the games. It was so patently done by the CIA. It was so, obviously done by the CIA. It didn’t work. You know, of course, the 2008 Olympics will go down in history as one of the in Beijing will go down in Summer Olympics, will go down in history as one of the greatest Olympic events ever. However, they realized at that point that their policy of promoting the Tibetan language at the expense of the Chinese was a mistake. So, it was all Tibetan. It was very, very little Chinese. After grade school. And so, they realized Tibet was coming in online, high-speed trains were coming in and airports were being built. And Tibet was becoming another Xinjiang. But these poor Tibetans couldn’t find jobs because they couldn’t speak Mandarin properly and read and write Mandarin properly. So, that socialist ideal about preserving minority culture is just as big in China as Leo’s talked about in the Soviet Union, and I’ve written about it in my books are spoiled rotten. They get anything they want. Whatever they ask for, they get because the Chinese government wants them to be happy. They’re spoiled.

Leo: And those policies may make Western affirmative action pale in comparison.

Jeff: Yeah. And so, let me just go ahead and finish. So, then they went on to a massive learn Chinese Campaign, and the adults who had already gotten out of school in the last ten years, ‘ve done a remarkable job. Now the curriculum is more balanced. They speak, read, and write Tibetan perfectly. But now they also speak, read, and write Chinese perfectly. And so, I just want to point that out. And now because of that Tibetans are joining corporations and businesses all over China. Now they’re now being able to go outside of Tibet and get jobs around the country, work for companies. So, now they speak, read, and write Chinese. So, anyway, I just wanted to make that comment.

Billy: There’s 1.4, 1.5 billion people in China. 92% of them are the Han majority. Is that true? And then there’s like 38-ish recognized.

Jeff: 55

Billy: Okay. 55 recognized minority ethnic minorities. And they get special treatment like you guys are saying, which is within socialism. There’s a long history of that from Lenin protecting and promoting these individual cultures and celebrating them under the umbrella of socialism. And that’s just patently different from the West’s approach. So, the West sees these differences as ways to divide societies, weaken societies, and further their imperialist interests. And that’s just the card they play over and over and over again everywhere. You know, Western imperialism has sought to further its interests.

Jeff: Oh, just mention Native Americans. Aborigines in Australia. I mean, it’s just it’s been totally genocide.

Billy: They weren’t treated so well.

Leo: Understatement of the century. Yeah.

Billy: So, we’ve got some clips we can play and discuss. I know Leo thought this Norman Finkelstein clip was interesting. I found one from Glenn Greenwald about some Zionists in New York just expressing some really Nazi-like thoughts. Should we try and see if we can?

Jeff: That’s because Zionism is fascism. I mean, there’s no difference.

Leo: Yeah, we can talk about the roots of Zionism and also of the Jewish state a little bit, and also the Hebrew language, and also in terms of ethnicity, like the construction, the arbitrary, totally cynical construction of the Jewish identity that is absolutely integral to the colonial fascist project. But we can deal with that a little bit. But if you want to play those clips, play yours first, and then the Norman Finkelstein if you want to play them.

Fuck Palestine. Palestine to my dick!

What do you think the response should be from Netanyahu and the military?

Kill all Palestinians, all of them! Not one left. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be decreased!

Israel needs to do like this. You see, now, Gaza is like this. Gaza needs to do like this or like this but all this Jewish. Two options.

What do you think the response should be to Gaza?

We gotta wipe them off the faking map. I’m talking about every fucking Flatten them like a parking lot. Flatten them out once and for all and get rid of them.

There’s nothing you can do. They proved to us there’s nothing else you can do. We tried.

You tried everything. It doesn’t work.

Billy: That’s right. You get the gist. Is that true? Did Israel just try everything? Do they just bend over backward? Is that true?

Jeff: Well, I’d like to point out that this genocide, I mean, people are it’s popular to talk about 1948 when the United States and Britain forced the creation of Israel on the world, but it really, really goes back to 1917 to the Balfour Declaration. And that was basically when the Rothschild which is the Jewish banking family that controls non-socialist communist global banking. Witt signed with the United States and with Britain declaring that there would be a Jewish state created in Palestine. Immediately money started. In 1917, money started flowing in. Jews started pouring in. They have been stealing, raping, and exterminating Palestinians. Not since the 67 War, not since 1948, 106 years this genocide has been going on. So, we’ve really tried everything. And I’m sure Leo knows a lot more than I do about it, but it just goes to the Jewish Torah which is basically the Old Testament. Sanctions prove all this. You know the three of us are not are not even. We’re subhuman. We’re sub-humans. You know, we don’t deserve to live because we’re not Jewish. So, the Jewish holy book, the Torah sanctions, stealing, piracy, rape, plunder, genocide, and extermination. It’s all perfectly legal in order to preserve the Jewish people. So, I have no sympathy for the Jews. I have no sympathy for Israel. I have no sympathy for you and I keep seeing this. Well, remember, not all Jewish people are Zionists. Well, tell that to the poor Palestinians who are being slaughtered like dogs. Do they really care anyway?

Leo: Yeah, for sure average citizens of Israel are complicit to an extent. But we should make a distinction between the Jewish religion and Zionism a very big difference because those extremely ethnocentric and violent passages exist not only in the Old Testament of the Jewish religion but also in Christianity and Islam as well. These Abrahamic religions all come from a time 2000 roughly years ago, or Islam is younger. But they all contain passages like this as well as very humanist and very communal sort of ideas in them. But the Jewish religion is the oldest, right? The historical development is such that it was perhaps the most patriarchal and the most extreme in some of these aspects. But again, like, I think we should definitely make a distinction between Zionism and the Jewish religion. I think this is very important because Zionism is entirely a fabrication. It’s entirely a construct of the colonial powers. It’s from its inception. I’m not an expert by any means. I’ve only recently started researching and studying these things, but the Hebrew language was consciously, deliberately created very, very recently in the 20th century using Yiddish some aspects of the old language, but combined with other things. And it’s the thing itself the language is sort of a very modern construct. And we have to bring in a little bit of ethnicity. I don’t want to go too deep into it. But what we think of as Jewish people, as an ethnicity doesn’t exist. It is a religion. It is a culture, right? If you wanted to talk about Semitic peoples, the people living in Israel are not Semitic like the vast majority of them. They are Europeans. They have European blood. They have European ethnicities that were moved there. And they are the upper crust. The landowners are all white and the more brown, darker-skinned Jewish people from Ethiopia, from North Africa, from everywhere run the shops. They have small businesses and the ones from Africa tend to be service sector workers. It is absolutely a racist state within Israel. And of course, the Palestinians are the lowest and have none of the rights that Israeli Jewish Israelis enjoy. So, from its inception, like, please, I would encourage all of the viewers to research the creation of the Hebrew language and also the wholly arbitrary ethnic category that is Jewish that has been created in a very cynical way. Now also, just to expand on this Zionist entity and its history, right? I was listening to Ben Norton’s very good program very recently about Israel’s footprint all over South America. Since its inception in the 50s, I think. Or late 40s, was it? But they have been funding, arming, and training paramilitary right-wing death squads all over South America. Israel, the IDF has been training these paramilitaries with funding from the CIA to exterminate indigenous people in South America, Guatemala, Honduras, Colombia, and Chile, all over South America, exterminating indigenous people, burning down thousands of villages, of indigenous people, massacring mass murdering leftists by the tens, hundreds of thousands for decades and decades. And of course, in Africa as well, the IDF has been doing these kinds of activities all over the world. And from every angle that we look at Zionism itself, it’s not just like Wahhabism is a perversion of the Quran. Zionism is a sick anti-Jewish ideology. It is a fascist colonial entity from its inception. And it is nothing but.

Billy: So, I’ve written a few things on Facebook, and to that to your point, Leo, Zionism began around the turn of the century, between the 1800s and 1900s. And Theodor Herzl convened the First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland, in 1893. But it was predicated on this pseudoscientific understanding of race, and it was predicated on this false understanding that Jews are a race that has these intractable genetic differences from non-Jews, and they can’t assimilate, and efforts to assimilate Jews with non-Jews are always going to end in Jewish suffering and Jewish people being oppressed by their Gentile neighbors. So, the solution to that was to make their own state. Unfortunately, they wanted to make their own state in a region that was 95% non-Jewish. So, from the very beginning, Zionism was not going to accomplish anything without terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and land theft. So, terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and land theft are inherent to Zionism.

Leo: Yeah, before the British, mostly the British, carved out a piece of Palestine to establish Israel, there were at least two prior attempts or ideas to establish a Zionist state in other parts of the world. I’m pretty sure the first one was Uganda. There was an attempt to establish a Zionist state in Uganda, and then in 1930, before the war broke out before World War Two broke out, there was a pact. This I just learned about recently. There was a pact, a plan that didn’t go through. But there was a plan between the Japanese colonizers and the Zionists, called the Puffer Fish Plan. And it was the Japanese. The idea was that after the Japanese successfully colonized all of China, they would give the Zionists a piece of China in what is today, Manchuria, or what was called Manchuria, to establish a Zionist state. So, this idea didn’t go through. But those were some previous attempts to establish this fascist colonial tool.

Jeff: Also, Madagascar was looked at to play a little bit of the devil’s advocate, and now I’m kicking myself. I didn’t get it, but I met another China Writers group member, Amir Khan, who’s a professor at Hunan University in Changsha, China. We spent a few days together and traveled around together. And he mentioned a book and I should have written it down. He mentioned. He said this book really was amazing. I think, it was a Canadian writer, and it was a history of the Jewish people going back to 2000 B.C. or 15. Well, Abraham supposedly lived about 1500 B.C. So, it was basically a history of the Jewish people. Of course, Abraham left Mesopotamia after a civilizational collapse there and wandered around the desert and his sheepskin and his camel skin tent and finally landed in Palestine, et cetera. And Amir I’m really sorry I can’t give it to you tonight. And I asked him for it and we’ve had email problems. And anyway, now I’m kicking myself for not getting it. But he said that this guy points out that in order to survive this, the Jews have always been a minority, a tiny minority. I mean, there are only 2.4 or 1.8% of the American people. So, they’ve always been a minority. Everywhere they’ve been, they’ve always been a tiny minority. He pointed out and just showed case after case after case that Jewish people learned how to survive by pitting the majority of people against each other, fomenting discontent between the bigger groups so that they would ignore them and not do anything against them. And anyway, I do want to try to get the book and read it, but creating wars outside of them and letting everybody else slaughter each other so that they could survive has been a survival tool for the Jewish people for thousands of years. And I’m sorry, I don’t have the name of the book, but I’ll try to get it and send it to you.

Leo: And just do go continue that train of thought. The Jewish cultural category of Jewish people has been repeatedly victimized since Rome or even before Rome, right? And it is true that they were forbidden to take other jobs to have to own businesses and to have other jobs other than banking. That is one of the reasons that is the primary reason why a lot of Jewish people in Europe did go into Moneylending because they were discriminated against. And this fact fed into the Nazi racist idea of Jewish bankers. And they control the world which still persists today. I mean, there’s an element of truth in that, but it doesn’t mean what the fascists mean. And there is a larger point here that anti-Semitism, of course, does exist. Anti-Jewish racism, of course, has been a major force in Europe through the centuries and with the establishment of capitalism. A lot of social dissonances, conflicts, and contradictions arose. People were unhappy. People were broken up from their families. People were exploited brutally since the 1600s, 1700s, 1800s, and 1900s, and all of the contradictions of capitalism have victimized people who were blamed on the Jews. This is, I think, the central point why anti-Semitism is a little bit different or a lot different from other kinds of racism, in that all of the emerging contradictions of capitalism were blamed solely on the Jews, scapegoated on the people that were more or less forced into banking professions. And they were successful. They’re smart people. So, I just wanted to point out the origin of this idea that Jews control the world and they control the banks and all of these ideas.

Billy: That they’ve caused all the wars. That’s kind of why Hitler accused communism of being a Jewish plot for global domination. And so, yeah, it’s a complex.

Leo: It’s complex, but it’s absolutely sickening. And especially with what we were talking about earlier, the establishment, the construction of the Jewish racial identity, which is wholly arbitrary, right? And the creation of the modern Hebrew language, and the establishment of the Zionist state. And I mean, knowing all of this, right, just makes this Jews control the world idea even more stupid. It’s just completely ludicrous.

Jeff: So, I guess before then, the Torah must have been in Latin and Greek. It must have been. If it wasn’t in Hebrew, it had to have been in Latin or Greek.

Leo: No, I mean Yiddish existed.

Jeff: Okay. I’m talking about 2000 years ago.

Leo: Yeah.

Jeff: I guess the Torah had to have been either in Greek or Latin because that’s what the Bible was in.

Leo: Yeah, probably. I mean, back then in 2000 years ago, there was no distinction between Christians and Jews except for religion. They’re all Semitic people. They’re all Semitic peoples in that region of the world.

Billy: Ben, thank you for joining us.

Ben Toth: Hey, sorry I’m late, guys. I just wanted to hear it out. I didn’t want to interrupt the really, really interesting conversation. Hey, guys. Jeff, first, I want to congratulate you not just on the great book, but the foreword from one of my personal heroes, I think Andre Vltchek for getting that.

Jeff: Oh, yeah, yeah, one of my good friends, great friends rest in peace.

Ben: Oh, an absolute role model for me that guy. But thought this was interesting.

Leo: Where do you live, Ben? I’m just curious.

Ben: I’m in Hungary where this trope is used all the time with George Soros who is actually a hugely damaging person. But everybody in Hungary thinks that’s anti-Semitism from the Orban government because we don’t like Soros. So, it’s been used all the time. What I found interesting is, yes, anti-Semitism, they poison the wells and all that that predates capitalism that came from the Western European nation-states. And it was all even during feudalism, they had to get sort of the modern artisanal service jobs in the cities, I guess of the urban centers. They weren’t laboring out in the fields. And a lot of that which existed from just the average working people for them, that envy that already got weaponized before it actually took off and took the world into one empire or the other. But yeah, very interesting, very ancient. I’m not sure I contributed much so far, but I’m really interested in where this is going.

Billy: So, the official narrative is that Israel, and it depends on if you’re doing the official Christian narrative that believes that Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, and they believe that the Jews are a people and they will argue that they’re genetically linked. They are the genetic descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Now that just falls apart, right? Because you have Ethiopian Jews, you have Persian Jews, you have Iraqi Jews, you have Eastern European Jews. It’s ridiculous to propose that all these people have a genetic link to Abraham that’s stronger than, say, the genetic link the average member of Hamas has to Abraham. So, Shlomo Sand, in his book “The Invention of the Jewish People”, asserts that the average member of Hamas has a closer genetic linkage to Abraham than any of these white European settlers that came over during the last 100 years. But the other thing would be the religion, right? Well, okay. You’re a Jew because you identify with the religion of Judaism. But the problem is the vast majority of people in Israel aren’t religious. They don’t adhere to any. They’re not Jewish in the religious sense. You know, they claim a cultural heritage, but they do not believe in religious Jews. So, yeah, these things are if you have the time to research, the official narrative, it becomes obvious doesn’t hold any water. And if you think about it deeply enough, you realize that Israel ought not to deserve our support for their terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and land theft that continues and has gone on for the last 100 years.

Leo: It has to be said.

Billy: But a lot of people are too busy and they just kind of passively absorb the Western indoctrination, that we’re all subjected to.

Jeff: A big problem is, although I will say I’m surprised about how much pro-Palestinian expression is percolating in the media. But the big problem is, is the Big Lie Propaganda Machine. I mean they said there was an EFA, The European Football Association is telling people you can’t have you can’t fly Palestinian flags in any of the stadiums in Europe. Well, they’re doing it.

Ben: Celtic had Celtic, which is a Scottish one. They just dressed everything up. The latest I’ve seen was an Irish team. And that’s the thing that this is in the West. What is called the global South is automatically with Palestine because they know the boot everywhere. But even in the West. I mean, I monitored it last week and I got to about two dozen cities in the collective west where there were these mass protests. I mean, things have changed.

Jeff: For Palestine.

Ben: For Palestine.

Leo: Pro-Palestine, I have to point out, that even within Israel, there are a lot of pro-Palestine voices, right? There are a lot of good Israelis who recognize the injustice that has gone on for 75 years. There’s a diversity of opinion within even Israeli media. There’s a lot of criticism of the administration. And they’re continuing.

Ben: Oh yeah. And they want Netanyahu out rightly.

Leo: Yeah. Yeah, a policy of the apartheid regime. I mean, actually, not many of them have been suppressed. But actually, even today in Israeli media, there are some dissenting voices. There’s a diversity of opinions. Compare that to Europe, compare that to Germany like any dissent is just completely suppressed. Just last week they arrested Jewish pro-Palestinian demonstrators here in Germany. It’s absolutely insane.

Billy: Let me add to that point and it also kind of talks about what Jeff was saying about Judaism in the Torah. And I think Leo gets it right in that Zionism is a perversion of Judaism. And there’s a way to interpret the Torah in a way that makes it okay for Jews to do unto others before they do unto them which you know. But there’s also the Orthodox Jews, there’s a lot of Orthodox Jews in New York City, for instance, and they’re pro-Iran, they’re anti-Zionist. So, there’s a good religion is like.

Ben: You can do that with any holy book. You can do that with any holy book. You can use it.

Billy: Exactly, exactly. So, it’s very malleable. And it depends on what your interests are. And you know what kind of a person you are. That’s the kind of religion you’re going to get from your holy book. But I want to get the best from the holy books. And so, I denounce Zionism and interpretations of holy books that are bad for humanity.

Jeff: When I talk to people about the Old Testament and all it’s just it’s mean.

Leo: Genocide.

Jeff: In my opinion, it’s a pretty god awful, God awful.

Ben: It’s amazing that God slept through all that.

Jeff: Yeah, anyway. And they say, well, don’t read those parts. Just read the good parts. But I say yeah what the problem is that our world leaders are the ones that read the bad parts.

Leo: Exclusively.

Jeff: Exclusively. And the Zionists are the ones who read the same passages in the Torah. It’s okay.

Leo: Neocons.

Jeff: Yeah, neocons.

Leo: And the fundamentalist Christians only read the most horrible parts of the Christian Bible as well.

Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben: Yeah. And they have nukes. You know, that includes Netanyahu. That includes Biden. That’s a scary concept altogether.

Billy: What are we to make of the near-term future? You know, Alexander Mercurius yesterday alleging that two more carrier groups are on their way are being deployed. He was suggesting that makes four total in the Mediterranean. Now, I didn’t get any confirmation of that. I tried to check the news to see if there were in fact two additional carrier groups. But we know of the two that are already headed to the Mediterranean, assuming two more are on deployment, like, do we see clearly that the US is looking for a war with Iran, or is it is it bravado? Is it an attempt to just warn Iran not to intervene if there is an invasion of Gaza? Jeff, I want to hear your take on what the short-term future portends in Israel and Palestine.

Jeff: Well, of course, we know Iran is funding the Houthis in Yemen. We know Iran is funding Hezbollah in Southern Iran. We know that the Iranians have forces in Iraq. We know that they have they’re helping Syria. And so, I think Iran is like China. It really does not want to get into a hot war. I mean, they’ve got 80 million people, and their economy is suffering from all the sanctions. I think Iran would like to avoid a hot war right now. And this is so clearly, I mean, you can just see it in the headlines. Biden tells Netanyahu to hold off on the invasion. And the United States is going to help with the invasion. Palestine is the new Ukraine. The United States was using Ukraine to attack Russia and the United States is using well, Israel, if you want to attack the Arab world, basically that’s what it boils down to. I think it would be an embarrassment for the West if Iran does get involved. I think what they’ll try to do is try to keep feeding as much material to Hezbollah. Remember, Hezbollah has not gotten involved at all so far just some skirmishes. They took out a few tanks.

Ben: Equivalent of throwing a rock. They really getting into it.

Jeff: Yeah. But Hezbollah is the 800-pound gorilla. They’re the ones that have over 100,000 missiles. They’re the ones that really, really scare Israel. They’re the ones that kicked Israel’s ass in 2006. I mean, Israel got its ass waxed in 2006 by Hezbollah. And now Hezbollah is much, much more powerful than it was. So, I think, I mean in my sort of bravado I’d love to see Iran raining missiles down on Israeli airports and American bases occupying forces in Syria and in Iraq. But the people can’t afford it. And all the United States would do would just rain missiles down. And of course, Iran would try to avoid civilian casualties. The United States would be dropping bombs on downtown Tehran and Isfahan, and they don’t give a shit. You know, they’ll be bombing schools and hospitals. I mean, that’s what we do. And so, I think what’s going to obviously the ground thing is going to work. They’re going to pull it off. I was a little bit alarmed. I mean, I’m sure Hamas and Hezbollah must have thought about this but I heard that Israel was talking about flooding or pumping nerve gas into the tunnels of Hamas and I don’t know what that would do. I don’t know.

Ben: It is specifically said with the US Navy’s administration or something like that. So, it’s not just us.

Jeff: Yeah, of course. And I think the two extra aircraft carrier units or so that the US will be trying to take out as many Hezbollah missiles as possible. Apparently, I don’t know if it’s true or not, but they put an aircraft carrier unit over in the Persian Gulf that apparently had a good effect against the Houthis drones from bombing Saudi. That’s supposed to be resolved, but it never seems to end. Saudi forces still occupying Yemen. So, this is clearly another proxy war. The United States with France, England, and Germany again, the only two countries in Europe that have any integrity any sense of history, and any sense of decency, or Hungary and Serbia.

Ben: And one person in Spain. Let me just add that because that woman is a legend.

Jeff: Yeah. Orban and Vilcek and they’re the only two the rest of France. I mean, I see the TV in France and it’s just like, I just want to vomit listening to Macron and many Macrons. And so, that’s what I think, Hezbollah will have to get involved. I mean, if they go in full force into Gaza, Hezbollah will attack Israel. I think another very interesting one is Iraq and Syria attacking the illegal forces there. The Iraqis a year and a half ago asked the Americans to leave. Of course, they’re an occupying force. They are occupying the eastern third of Syria. And I saw a headline, general whatever his name says, that the United States has been attacked by self-defense, 12 times in Syria and 12 times was it 12 times in Iraq and three times in Syria? You know, I don’t know. That would be an interesting play because, of course, Iran could flood across the border with all kinds of nastiness to cause the Americans hell in Iraq and in Syria. So, interesting times. But there’s clearly going to be a war. And just like in Ukraine and to sit there and say, oh, this just happened. Oh, this started happening in 1917 with the Balfour Declaration and millions of people have been slaughtered, exterminated, and ethnically cleansed over the generations. So, that’s my take. It may not be a brilliant answer.

Ben: No, I agree on major points, but I’d like to sort of add a little bit of a wrinkle or my thinking. Is anybody seeing the New Economist cover which is a British Billionaires magazine on the main story of it? It’s America’s Test of Might or something like that? America is supposed to show in the Middle East that it is mighty because most of the world doubts it. They see America in decline. So, the Brits are very much cheering this on. But go back not much, a couple of months we had the BRICs (the Belt and Road Forum) expanded to BRICs 11. It was going to include Saudi Arabia. It was going to include the UAE. And of course, China made that amazing diplomatic strike like this to end the Yemen war. The Saudis were getting along with Iran. What I meant earlier was the Sunni Crescent around the Wahhabis. And that turned into, I think Scott Ritter described it as the cross of Chaos, and it was diffused. The whole region was going into a peaceful reconciliation and that’s when the US and I’m not sure about this whole what is it called now? Ten-seven, the ten-seven attack where it came from Pied Piper versus real intelligence failure. I’m with a real intelligence failure. But the reaction was absolute panic. And now all of that progress. That’s what it seems lost because the multi-polar world is just marching around the border. And that means expulsion of the US’s influence from many, many regions. And this was the region that they said fuck Ukraine. We’re not going to let this happen because this is an oil nation, this is oil central. And that’s why they’re just moving ahead and ahead. Just it’s signals, it’s posturing. That’s why we’re going to get. Did you say four carrier groups for Holy? How many do we have?

Billy: That’s a good question. I know there are two in the Mediterranean. Alexander Mercurius was saying that he heard yesterday morning that two more were being deployed, and he suspected they were going to go to that area of the world, but I couldn’t get any independent confirmation of that. But that was something he said on his YouTube.

Ben: The escalation always comes from the Western side. What I’ve heard from Iran, both at the UN level and at home, is don’t, don’t, don’t this could get out of control. Please don’t fucking do this. And always from the other side of this thing. I agree with Jeff that Iran is not in its interest, but it’s not because it’s poor and under sanctions, it’s finally opening up to the world of sanctions. It would be in a group with China North Korea, and Russia, who no longer give a toss about the sanctions. And it could start exporting. You know, in the Constitution, science is enshrined in Iran’s constitution. Every year they have the equivalent amount of mathematicians and engineers as the United States has. You mentioned they had 80 million people, right? The US has 330 million. It’s a highly advanced science. They built an automotive industry from the ground up. I mean, these are serious, sophisticated people who don’t want this, but if America engaged with this, I don’t know if this is from Mercurius, but I agree it’s going to be a catastrophe for them. Of course, the rest of the world is as well, but for the US, it’s a catastrophe.

Leo: And I just to add to your earlier point about what China is doing in the region, the Western Asia region, besides the diplomatic inroads

Ben: Building.

Leo: Yes. Yeah. Besides the rapprochement that China was able to broker, that is going to create long-term stability and peace or towards that. The first part of China’s engagement with Iraq is building 1000 schools. That’s only the first part.

Ben: I recently watched someone travel through the country. Do you know where the most cranes are and where the most construction is right now in West Asia? That is Afghanistan. And they didn’t make it to a lot of international forums, but they were there at the Belt and Road Forum man. That’s a serious lifting of status.

Ben: Absolute. Also, I just heard about this today, China has just completed the first high-speed rail in Western Asia between connecting this Mecca and Medina.

Ben: Oh, the two most Holy places.

Leo: I mean, this is seismic. This is epic. This is world-historic for Islamic people of the Islamic faith all over the world. I mean, from Mecca to Medina. I mean, that’s like world-historic.

Ben: I guess the next step would have been to go to Al-Aqsa, and that couldn’t happen. That couldn’t be allowed to happen.

Jeff: I do want to point out, I think the resolve of I do want to go back to a little bit to Palestine. I’m looking for his email and I can’t find it, just like Amir’s book about the history of the Jewish people. And I apologize for not being better prepared. But anyway, he’s a cool guy. He’s a Palestinian. He wrote a book about the cooperation between the hunger strikers in Ireland and the hunger strikers in Palestine. It was really interesting.

Ben: There’s a lot of that graffiti still in Ireland. I’m you might be aware of this.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure there is. And anyway, he’s from Palestine. He’s a professor in Turkey. And anyway, he just sent an email and unfortunately, I muffing his name and I’m not spelling his name right.

Billy: Did you say it was Amir Khan? Was his name Amir Khan?

Jeff: No, no. Amir China writers’ group.

Billy: Okay, okay. Somebody else.

Jeff: Anyway, he just said, I have lost nine relatives in Gaza. Nine. Enough is enough. And then just yesterday. And what I’m trying to find is he said that the Palestinian people have decided that the era of ethnic cleansing is over. And he said that the Palestinian people have decided that there is no paradise in the Sinai. In other words, they’re going to fight. They’re going to fight. And this is it. They put up with this humiliation since 1917. And I think that there’s going to be a lot of people killed. Thousands and thousands and thousands will be killed. But they killed 8 million North Koreans and the Americans still lost. They killed 3 million Vietnamese and they still lost. They killed millions of people all over the world and the Americans have continued to lose. And so, but I think it’s going to be really, really bloody. I think there’s going to be a lot of Palestinian martyrs and let’s just keep our fingers crossed that it turns out to be as big a disaster for the Americans as Ukraine is.

Ben: I think it will. On your first, it’s really heartbreaking. You can find it what do you call when there’s more than one message? Thread on the last messages of Mart before people got martyred. And it’s like full of I don’t care if I go to heaven, we will one day be free. It’s like a testament to people who will be amazing. And I downloaded it. It was like a huge many hundred pages pdf, the latest, the Palestine Medical Association, something like that, the death report. The first 43 names were identical. That’s it’s like an extended family gone. It’s heartbreaking. But at the time when I left for the thing I had to do today, the last thing I saw was Douglas McGregor and Scott Ritter both mentioned that I couldn’t find this anywhere. Fisher at the time that there was this little expeditionary force, like a little tasty bud thing that the Israelis and the US sent into Gaza, into the bombarded region. And they were dead and they were gone. So, again, treat this as a rumor for the scuttlebutt for the time being. But if that’s true, that’s fucking significant because the news about, okay, we’re going to delay, we’re not going to sign the military order to commence with the invasion that came out a couple of hours after this.

Jeff: Maybe they’re reading Ho Chi Minh’s papers on the people’s war.

Leo: Absolutely. The Hamas and I’m sure, the Hezbollah fighters have been studying Vietcong tactics extensively over the years, not only in recent years.

Jeff: These were, of course, influenced by Mao Zedong and the People’s Army in China.

Leo: Absolutely.

Jeff: Ho Chi Minh met Mao and lapped up everything Mao talked about as far as people’s war. And so, let’s hope that that’s what it turns into. And I don’t know what’s going to happen, but I think it’s going to be a bloody one.

Ben: I’m just going to drop one more name because Kim Il-Sung did the same in asymmetric warfare, and even the Japanese praised him. You know, when your enemies praise you, that that means you’re someone. Kim Il-Sung, the original.

Leo: Oh, Kim Il-Sung.

Ben: Yes, yes. Maybe the pronunciation. Sorry.

Jeff: Yeah, he was another one. Of course. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Leo: I’m not an expert in military matters, but from everything I’m reading and everything that I’m looking at, there’s just no way that Israel and the US are not going to get their asses thoroughly handed to them diplomatically, militarily, just in terms of, like, everything on every angle.

Ben: Soft power is lost as well.

Leo: Absolutely.

Ben: It is not part of diplomacy. Soft power is down the drain now. Nobody’s going to believe that you’re for human rights and democracy after this.

Billy: Let me throw something out there. Let me throw an idea out there. I mean, assuming there’s just the two carrier task forces and they do start attacking Iran with missiles and planes. Iran might try and block the Straits of Hormuz, which 20% of the world’s oil goes through there, and 25% of the world’s natural gas goes through the Straits of Hormuz. So, that would cause a global economic crisis. And so, Iran’s doctrine isn’t really to project force and win an offensive war against another country. It’s to hunker down, defend themselves and where you know, and outlast whoever is trying to destroy them. So, that’s they can do that through attrition and by causing economic distress throughout the planet. But what if the US wants that, right? What if the US is looking for a global economic catastrophe as justification to then implement a wider war against China, against shipping lanes? So, that kind of worries me. I’ve been thinking along those lines.

Ben: It’s increasingly worrying me too. But there’s one problem. Have you checked a topographical map of Iran? It’s like from every direction. It’s just basically a fortress of mountains. You need to, I think, refuel your F-18 bomber jet twice just to get to Tehran from the fucking beach. And that American carrier is not on the beach, and Iran has the Fata, the hypersonic missile for which this is sitting. Of course, the US is the dominant air force, dominant air force. That has been their major motto for the last 20 years since they’ve been killing shepherds.

Jeff: A lot of people don’t know that Hezbollah, has thousands of kilometers of tunnels. And Iran, which has thousands of kilometers of tunnels. Do you know who they cooperated with to learn all that? North Korea.

Ben: DPRK, of course.

Jeff: North Korea, DPRK has been working for 20 to 30 years with Iran and Hezbollah to teach them tunnel technology because that’s what the North Koreans had to do when the United States was literally re-bombing rubble. And the northern half of Korea exterminating 8 million people. They had to dig tunnels and get as many people out of them.

Ben: The leveled Pyongyang was like, yeah.

Jeff: So, I think the question for Iran and listen, man, I don’t know if you all know who Ramin Mazaheri is, but wonderful, a wonderful journalist. His book about socialist Islamic Iran is just unbelievable. And I can tell you if it means victory, millions of Iranians are ready to die. Millions are ready to die.

Ben: I gonna just going to say just look at some of theirs. They have these I forget the word now like religious but singing leaders and just the spirit you get when they sing I think Haider which means lion, lion. And it’s all about. We’re ready to sacrifice ourselves for Palestine for the brotherly people there. The public opinion is again, it’s like Russia for nine years, Putin kind of held back. His people don’t go in, don’t go in. They want it to go in. Iran is the same. Iran is holding back its people because they want to go in now. I had another thought, but.

Jeff: That happens.

Ben: Yeah. Oh, yeah. You talked about one point of asymmetric warfare. The one the DPRK practices, the one where Hamas practiced underground insurrection. But everybody keeps forgetting that it’s like 30 years since NATO and the US is prime. And as I started saying their mantra, their doctrinal response was that the Air Force flattened everything. And then we go in with a few people to clean up. And Russia has been advancing since 2000 in the absolute opposite direction. Is that your strategy? We’re going to build the best air defense in the world. The S-400, now identified by Sergey Shoygu, shot down something like 24 jets in five days. And they say this outright, saying, you can try this, this is a meme, but it’s a cute meme. Someone said, look at the A-10 and look at all the things that the A-10 killed. It’s the Tank Killer Warthog aircraft that NATO has. They sent somewhere into the region. And the meme was, what does the A-10 pilot do when faced with real anti-aircraft missiles? One dies because that is it. So, I mean, Hypersonic missiles were built to cut through every defense that the US has. China has them, Iran has them, Russia has them, and it’s proven it in Ukraine.

Jeff: And the DPRK.

Ben: Yeah, I mean, they were saying sending the newer tank, sending the new one you sent the Patriots sending something newer. We want to test it against all of this because we can smash them to bits easily in the first week. It’s been dismal for the image of the US what do you call it Armed forces that they want to try this with Iran. That’s where I think that’s asymmetric too. And they still think it’s 1990 I think not the military leaders, not the Pentagon, but these Blinken’s, the Biden’s maybe the Nuland Kagan’s, they still think like that. And for them, this is the prize. We have to destroy Syria, get the Russians out, and we have to destroy Iran because it’s the bad boy. But it’s asymmetric.

Billy: So, we have a general agreement. There’s not a good military option for the West against Iran in the Middle East. I’m liable to believe that. But I’m worried that the US can stand way off and just destroy cities, destroy civilian infrastructure, and suffer relatively light consequences as a result. But I hope that’s not true.

Leo: No, I mean, Russia and China are both standing by. The six warships from China are parked in the vicinity.

Ben: In Doha.

Leo: The official Chinese statement says that they are there to escort some shipping or whatever.

Billy: Diplomatic mission.

Ben: Goodwill visit, something like that. But that’s diplomacy. Yeah.

Leo: But they’re they are ready and there’s they’re standing by and the Russian hypersonic missiles, the US military has no answer for that.

Billy: Well, I would point out that neither Russia nor China has any kind of defensive pact with Iran. Like, there’s no agreement that if Iran is under attack, Russia and China are going to defend them.

Ben: True but look at the level of coordination.

Billy: That they’re going to defend Israel, right? The United States says they’re gonna defend Israel. They asked Britain Germany and France to do the same.

Ben: Even Russia and China, they never said we’re allies. We are in this strategic partnership of the 21st century or something, and they have been coordinating so deeply. It’s up to your eyeballs. And they’ve done the same diplomatically with Iran. I mean, where did the foreign minister Abdollahian fly? He flew to Moscow. That is the diplomatic heart of the world, and he knows it because the UN has proved to be useless in this. But Jeff had a thought. I’m sorry. I just had to spit.

Jeff: I just wanted to point out. But don’t forget, Iran is now a member of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

Ben: And BRICS 11 from January 1st. Yep.

Jeff: And the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which includes China and Russia was first set up as a military cooperative for military cooperation. Now it’s a lot more. Now it’s economic.

Ben: I thought it was just economic like the EU once upon a time.

Jeff: Well, I think there’s a military. They do cooperate together. They do exercises together. I think that Iran could sit there and could say to China and Russia. Hey, we’re being attacked. We need your help. You know, I don’t think they would come out and openly do it, but they could sure provide him with a lot of material and equipment, which I’m sure that China and DPRK are already supplying arms to Russia. I think it’s pretty obvious. Not heavy-duty stuff, drones, and stuff, but it’s pretty obvious.

Billy: Russia and Iran did support Syria and did defend Syria militarily and Hezbollah. But again, that was against a proxy. That wasn’t against the US directly. So, it’ll be gamesmanship and brinksmanship, and it’ll be very interesting the next couple of weeks to see how everything plays out. It seems like the US is asking Israel, to hold off. We’re getting all of our assets in place, our anti-air, our carrier groups, and then going ahead and seeing how that plays out in the next couple of weeks will be momentous. It’ll be something that we see every century kind of thing.

Ben: And the whole world diplomatically knows this is greenlighting a genocide. They know it. It’s obvious. Once that thing starts, all bets are off. I don’t know what happens next, but I think the major. You, Jeff, had made that wonderful thing. The 80-pound gorilla or something.

Jeff: 800-pound gorilla.

Ben: 800-pound gorilla. I saw that somewhere in exactly the same phrasing. It was about Turkey because of the second-largest standing army.

Jeff: They’re supporting Palestine.

Ben: And I’ve never seen Erdogan come out like this. There’s what do you call them, domestic reasons for this like splitting with Kemalism and going the Muslim path, especially for the generals. But it was serious and I don’t think it’s he’s mostly still what you would call a paper tiger. I mean, he’s half a quarter of Iran when you come to the technology, the real force there. I still don’t think Turkey’s that big. It has a big standing army, but that’s it.

Jeff: And it’s a member of NATO.

Ben: Yeah. And that that’s in question now by some Republican I think senator or House representative hinted that they want to kick him. Well, good luck.

Jeff: Another interesting thing is I got I’ll bring up two other points. I don’t know how long your shows go, but I’ll bring up a couple of other points. This is because there apparently is not a lot of solidarity in the Israeli Defense Force. Most of these are young conscripts. They don’t want to be there. It was okay to shoot kids who were throwing rocks at you. But it’s not okay to have hummus with some serious firepower shooting back. And so, I’ve been hearing that there are there’s dissension in some of the ranks. And that was also another reason that Netanyahu was trying to postpone things was to try to reinforce the morale of the soldiers. I don’t know how true that is. It’s just it’s actually something Godfree Roberts put on the China Writers Group. The other thing is, I’m just Israel has done an excellent, excellent job insinuating itself into the Arab world. And it’s shocking to see a map of all the Arab countries that now have diplomatic relations with Israel. You know, Morocco and Egypt and the Gulf states. Did Saudi Arabia ever? I don’t think Saudi Arabia.

Ben: No, no the BRICs thing would have made peace between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Basically, Biden’s answer was, look, I’m going to give you all the stuff you want, even if they call it the civilian nuclear program. But I think we can guess what that would have been. We’re going to give you all the good stuff, but you have to recognize Israel. That was the deal. And it’s dead now.

Jeff: Well, the standouts, Tunisia is now saying it’s now talking about. I actually living there for two years. Tunisia is now talking about passing a law making it against the law to recognize Israel. Algeria is definitely in the revolutionary camp. But there are just too many other countries, you know that. And I just wonder if it really spills over and goes into a hot war, well, will they stop relations with Israel? I don’t know. I just don’t know.

Billy: There’s going to be a lot of pressure on them from their people. Like, the governments are pliable puppets, Western puppets in a lot of those countries. But the actual populations of the country are definitely on the side of Palestine. So, it puts these countries, and these governments in a very tough situation.

Ben: That’s a really good point. Also, the second point on this is that they can speak really tough in diplomacy. We’ve seen Qatar not cancel the invitation of Joe Biden. Egypt has gone all out with brothers and sisters in, but they have massive US bases on their soil that kind of nips any of that in the bud, in my opinion.

Leo But those military bases are, I.

Ben: Jordan the same. The King of Jordan was very passionate, but he has the largest fucking base, the US base. Sorry, Leo. Go on.

Leo: No, no, I’m just saying that those military bases can be dismantled as well.

Ben: Yeah.

Jeff: I was just thinking that Russia cannot afford to lose Ukraine. China is not going to let Russia lose Ukraine and I was just sitting there thinking how important Iran is to China for the BRICs, for the Belt and Road Initiative, and for the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. I’m just sitting there wondering, thinking Russia and China are probably quietly saying the same thing. “We can’t let Iran lose. We cannot let them lose.” I mean that then Americans would be back on the Afghan border, very, very close to the Chinese border and on the border with on the border with India and everybody else. And of course, India is in the SCO too.

Ben: So, let’s not talk about India. Always depresses me.

Jeff: I know, it’s a mess. But anyway, I think China has been unusually forthright about supporting Palestine these last couple of weeks. I mean they’re coming out and basically, they’ve pissed the Israelis off. The Israelis are not happy with the Chinese because the Chinese are saying that this has been going on for 75 years. So, and it’s because there’s no two-state solution in sight.

Leo: So, the Chinese Administration is very careful, they say everything like everything’s, in reality, ten times stronger than what they say. And any statements, any positions that they put forth are very, very well thought out. And it has to be advantageous not only ideologically or concerning, like any other thing, but pragmatically.

Ben: I don’t have it in front of me, but I’ll paraphrase it. But just so, you know, China doesn’t do this lightly once every ten years, maybe it’s so serious. This was Premier Li Keqiang. I’m not sure about their pronunciation.

Leo: Li Keqiang.

Ben: Thank you, Li Keqiang. And he had this that much? It’s about two paragraphs. And it was a statement saying we support Iran, especially against foreign meddling in its internal affairs. It’s a huge commitment from China that is unusual from the Foreign Ministry. Yeah, absolutely. It’s bleeped on my radar. Yeah.

Billy: I don’t think it’s possible for the West to overthrow the government of Iran. I think they can do damage to the economy to the infrastructure that could probably kill millions of people, but they would need to occupy the country to get rid of the government. So, that’s not even a possibility like the government’s there. They know they can’t get rid of the government. But the question is, are they going to do their best just to push them back 20 years economically kind of thing?

Jeff: Well, like Ben pointed out, you look at a map of Iran. It’s like the Himalayan mountains, man.

Ben: Exactly. Look at the topography. And don’t forget that ever since the Shah, they have been watching America closely. They’ve been very, very sanctioned like more sanctioned than Russia at one point, and every plan they have made has been exactly in this direction. That’s why most of these drone facilities, the hypersonic missiles, they’re deep underground. You can’t even reach them with bunker busters. They’re proud of this. People who came up with some sort of new meshing of metals and concrete that has the most stopping power against these bunker busters, came from Iran, that technology. They’re not incompetent people. And hugely everybody thinks it’s all about the Ayatollah. It isn’t. It’s very decentralized. There are these Basij councils everywhere.

Jeff: And the charity counts.

Ben: Yeah. That’s why I think most people misunderstand what Iran is.

Jeff: And Iran is first and foremost a very socialist country. It’s extremely socialist.

Ben: They don’t call themselves that. But in effect, just like Russia doesn’t call itself that. You know, they say not capitalism, but Islam, that’s the official Iranian way. But people focused more than anything in Western Europe even the Nordic welfare states.

Leo: The socialist project in Iran has deep, deep roots. It has been it has been sidelined. It has been derailed by US proxy wars. The war between Iraq and Iran can be seen absolutely as a proxy war. Maybe the first one.

Jeff: Oh yeah, 88.

Leo: Yeah. That massively derailed the socialist project. But even before then, the US-backed regime changed operations. But those roots are as strong as ever.

Ben: Yeah, yeah, Iran is, I put it like this, far more technological, of course, but it’s like the people of Cuba you can land whatever you want on the shores of Cuba. Those people are going to be out in the streets within hours, and it’s just going to dismantle whatever you send to them because another.

Jeff: Another country that knows people’s war very, very well.

Leo: I have to go.

Billy: Okay. All right. Leo, thank you so much for joining us.

Leo: It’s been great.

Billy: We’ve been going a long time. I was going to make a final point about the ultimate. You don’t have to wait for the optimism, like, there is ultimately the decline of the West and the rise of China and the anti-imperialist block is, is it’s, what’s that word? Inevitable.

Ben: Irreversible.

Billy: Yeah, irreversible. Inevitable. Think anything the US tries to do militarily to forestall that inevitability is going to just accelerate their own decline. So, ultimately, I have no concern about how things are going to play out. But it’s interesting to speculate about how things are going to actually how that actually does play out. But so, yeah, I don’t want people to think that I’m pessimistic or that I’m worried that the West has any kind of cards to play against the just the changing shift from unipolarism to multipolarism because that’s just, it’s an inevitability.

Jeff: I think it’s good we’ll go ahead and say something, Ben, and then I will close it out.

Ben: Jeff, you will have the very last word on today’s show, but I just wanted to add that there are four pillars of power that any country can practice. The first is political that’s your alliances, the people who vouch for you at the UN. The US has lost the Russian UN resolution, like seven staunch allies of the US abstained, which has never, ever happened before. You know, that’s amazing. The second is ideological. I mean, we are the free market, the democracy, the human rights that’s gone. I mean, what else is there? There’s military and the fourth one is economic. But even that looks down the drain with the absolute increasing like trillions and trillions, just to service the debt that the US has while everybody is selling US treasuries and buying gold. It looks like the endgame. And the only thing Biden has in his he doesn’t have a deck of cards. He has one card military. And that is a sign of dire weakness. That’s what I’d put at the end. Jeff, take it away.

Jeff: Well, Ben and I live in Europe.

Ben: You’re in Europe. I didn’t.

Jeff: I’m in France, I’m in Normandy and Billy Bob is in Europe. We like to eat and our cuisine is really good. Hungarian cuisine and French cuisine are really good. And it’s 1945. It’s 745 in the evening in Hungary and France. I think Ben and I are going to go have a wonderful, wonderful European meal in our own cuisines. And Billy Bob Hope you can suffer through. I hope you can suffer through American cuisine. Because it’s not the same thing.

Leo: Throw that in my face as you leave.

Billy: Shame on you, sir. You’re absolutely right. You’re absolutely right.

Leo: Right.

Ben: Just based on accent, I thought Leo and I were the smoking European team. And you were the American team.

Jeff: No, no, I live in Normandy Cherbourg.

Ben: Oh, good.

Billy: Yeah. Thanks for giving us so much of your time. It’s an honor to be with you and to have this discussion with you. So, thank you so much. Ben, I’m glad you were able to make it a little belatedly. We’ll be back on Tuesday. We have some more big names on Tuesday. We got Larry Johnson and Max. What’s Max’s last name?

Ben: Blumenthal maybe.

Billy: Jeff, your friend Max.

Jeff: Max Perry.

Billy: Yes. Thank you. So, Max Perry and Larry Johnson on Tuesday’s program. So, I’m excited about that. But no, Jeff, thank you so much. We will hopefully have you back.

Jeff: Oh, I’ll be back on and I’m so happy to meet Ben.

Leo: Nice to meet you halfway through.

Jeff: Yeah, we’re not very far away from each other. Hungry and France is a high-speed train ride away and, well, maybe a connection or two, but we’re not very far.

Billy: You could literally meet for dinner.

Jeff: Well, a little a little bit late now. We could meet, for breakfast tomorrow morning in Budapest. All right. And anyway, so, good to see you, Billy Bob. And China writers group members. And of course, Leo Zhao is one of my all. You know, I’ve interviewed him like three times or something. He’s been on my show like three. The guy is brilliant and I wish he’d write more. But anyway, he’s just brilliant. So honored and humbled to be here tonight. I apologize for my laryngitis. I apologize for coughing. I was looking for a button to mute myself and I couldn’t find how to do it. I don’t know if you can do it in stream.

Ben: Yeah, in the bottom, there are controls. The left one is mute.

Billy: Yeah. In your picture at the bottom, those three dots, I think. I didn’t even notice, Jeff. I did not even notice.

Ben: It doesn’t matter.

Jeff: Next time, I will use the mute button if I’m hacking. All right. Thanks, guys.

Billy: Bye, Jeff. Thank you so much.

Jeff: I’m going to go and enjoy some nice Cabernet Sauvignon and have a nice meal.

Billy: Okay. All right.

Jeff: Bye-bye.

Ben: Bye, everyone.

###

Do yourself, your friends, family and colleagues a favor, to make sure all of you are Sino-smart: 

Google ebooks (Epub) and audiobooks:

44 Days Backpacking in China: The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=YBKHEAAAQBAJ

https://play.google.com/store/audiobooks/details?id=AQAAAECCkQXRlM

China Rising: Capitalist Roads, Socialist Destinations https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=YNmLEAAAQBAJ

https://play.google.com/store/audiobooks/details?id=AQAAAECCfHo86M

BIG Red Book on China: Chinese History, Culture and Revolution

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=6Wl4EAAAQBAJ

https://play.google.com/store/audiobooks/details?id=AQAAAECCfHo86M

Amazon print and ebooks (Kindle):

44 Days Backpacking in China: The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1484939999/

China Rising: Capitalist Roads, Socialist Destinations

https://www.amazon.com/China-Rising-Capitalist-Socialist-Destinations/dp/0996487042

BIG Red Book on China: Chinese History, Culture and Revolution

https://www.amazon.com/BIG-Red-Book-China/dp/1673322719/

Author page:

https://www.amazon.com/Mr.-Jeff-J.-Brown/e/B00TX0TDDI

Praise for The China Trilogy:

https://chinarising.puntopress.com/2018/06/30/praise-for-the-china-trilogy-the-votes-are-in-it-r-o-c-k-s-what-are-you-waiting-for/

Why and How China works: With a Mirror to Our Own History

44 Days Backpacking in China: The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass

China Rising: Capitalist Roads, Socialist Destinations

 

 

 

 

 

 

BIG Red Book on China: Chinese History, Culture and Revolution

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