By Jeff J. Brown
Pictured above: Dr. T.P. Wilkinson, contemplating the human existence, post SARS-CoV-2, with a hearty glass of Portuguese wine.
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Sixteen years on the streets, living and working with the people of China, Jeff
For those who prefer reading to listening or watching, here is T.P. Wilkinson’s interview transcript:
Original post with introduction, video and audio podcasts:
Jeff J. Brown: Good afternoon, everybody. This is Jeff J. Brown China Rising Radio Sinoland in Chiang Mai Thailand, and I’m going to go six hours earlier than my time to Porto, Portugal. And I want to give a big welcome back to Thomas Wilkinson. How are you doing tonight, Thomas?
For you, it’s the morning.
Thomas Wilkinson: That’s right. I’m looking out at it’s still something resembling sunshine.
Jeff: For those of you who are regular followers of China Rising Radio Sinoland in May of last year. So, it was eleven months ago, Thomas, that I had an amazing conversation together. We just covered a whole range of subjects and since then, we have become good friends. We’ve tried to meet each other. He tried to come to see us when we were in France last summer. My wife and I tried to go to Portugal to meet him. It didn’t work out. But we stay in regular contact by email and exchange a lot of ideas and information. And of course, now we’ve got the Coronavirus and he’s been writing like crazy, mostly on dissident voice. And I’ve been writing like crazy about Coronavirus on China Rising Radio Sinoland. And I just decided this would be a great time to get Thomas on the ship, back on the show and just kind of take a step back after the madness since December. The global pandemic hysteria, panic, etc., and just hear what Thomas thinks and what he has synthesized, etc. So, I absolutely have, if we had a camera, you could see my page is blank. I have no notes. So, this is going to be a complete just a conversation between two friends. Are you ready to get started? Thomas.
Thomas: Yeah, I’m ready.
Jeff: All right, tell us what you think. For all the friends, fans, and followers of China Rising Radio Sinoland there? What are some of the main points that you think they need to know about?
Thomas: Maybe I should start out with a little personal anecdote. When you and I talked, I didn’t realize it’s nearly a year ago. I had no idea for sure that I was going to be in China in 2019. I had actually applied or submitted a proposal for a paper at a conference in Macao. And the conference was about the Portuguese language in Asia. And I’m not fluent in Portuguese, but I am a little bit of experience in teaching foreign languages or teaching generally. And I’ve always been interested in the problems of people teaching or learning second or third or other languages. And I haven’t been to Macao 22 or 23 years ago. And then it was my first trip to China and I was looking forward to the idea of seeing Macao again after such a long time. I’ve been to Macao and Hong Kong before the handover and So, now it was like, I’m going to go and see what has happened in the course of 22 years.
Before I explain what I found or say something about what happened, I have to go back 30 years and 2019 was the 30th anniversary of the end of the Berlin Wall.
On the weekend of the 9th and 10th of November 1989, I was on a routine trip to Berlin to visit friends with no idea what was going on, because I really didn’t pay too much attention to this Leipzig demonstration stuff. It was GDR stuff, It didn’t really interest me because although I was not an opponent of GDR. I didn’t think it was a business to interfere in what was going on in their country. And So, I didn’t have a real opinion about it. In fact, I thought it was suspicious. But that’s would make the story too long. The point is, I got there and I was looking at the city I thought ‘where are all these cars coming from?’ They were like Travants and Wartangs and people coming from places I never saw before. And then there was another scene I’ll never forget, I was very close to where the border between East and West Berlin was, and there is a Woolworth store. And Woolworth store for any person born in the United States at least is a five and dime store. It’s not a place for high volume purchases. It’s usually, for a lower-middle-class people, we bought when I was a child, stuff and all because it was in our price range We were poor and that’s where we would shop, my mother would shop ideally. I saw lines outside of a Woolworths, around the block. And I thought I’d never see, if I could have explained this to my grandmother that people would queue to get into Woolworths, they’d all think I was nuts. I’d just gone to Berlin and what happens, the GDR ends. This is a little bit of a prosaic exaggeration, but it wasn’t the first time. It wouldn’t be the first difference someplace. Right at the time, something really strange and something transformative occurred. A similar thing happened when I was planning my trip to South Africa in 1991. I had not planned that there would be an end to apartheid, I’d already booked everything. Then there they’d just released Mandela. I thought, now we have to rewrite my whole dissertation thesis because it was all based on the system continuing the way it had been continuing. That happened, then I go to Brazil, which is where I was in 1986 after the military rule officially ended and I was there talking to people who were writing the new civilian constitution, stuff like that. So, last year, before we met basically on the telephone, I went to Brazil to see the woman I was going to marry after 32 years and I imagine that year 1986, and this complete idiot Bolsonaro had just been elected, who’s basically a fan of the 1964 revolution or coup d’état properly said. At the time, I have 32 years, I come the first time in Brazil, we are supposed to be leaving the military regime. And I come back 32 years later and the military regime on its way. I mean if I say a factor, there’s to interrupt a second, that line of thought. There’s a book I never read, but I found the title really great, it was by English comedian called Spike Milligan. And Spike Milligan wrote an autobiography which he called ‘Adolf Hitler and my role and his downfall.’ And this was sort of the way I’ve begun to wonder about my role in history. I don’t actually do anything, but I always get to places where something really radical happens about the time that it’s happening. When I joined Arthur Andersen in 2000, it was at the peak of the dot-com bubble and before I left, there was no Arthur Andersen left. Is that my fault? did I caused the company to collapse? Of course, I didn’t. But if I did tell that to your children let’s say that ‘Dad is there something wrong with you? maybe you should not get too close to me.’
Anyways, I went to Macao in the last week of November. And then I went from Macau to Hong Kong and spent a day and a half in a wonderful hotel, met the owner of the hotel very briefly but it was still something unusual. I took a wonderful Rolls-Royce trip to the airport to leave, which is one of the nicest airport transfers I ever had, and come back. Oh, I did see in Hong Kong a little bit of a demonstration. I didn’t even have to leave the hotel. I wanted to see what was really there because in television you’d never know what’s going on. And I have seen enough real things that were reported on television later to note that what we were seeing about the Hong Kong demonstrations was certainly not the whole story. So, I thought I’d go see what I didn’t have to because it came right to the hotel, good for me. In any case, that was the only exciting thing. So, I came back and I was in Porto and I said, well, it was all really tight and didn’t have enough money for the trip. But it wasn’t a grand experience, nothing seemed to happen. Within a month, we started talking and I said, I think I’d like to go teach there. And I was getting ready to do apply and then we got this report that China in Wuhan was basically closing everything and that there was this terrible disease that God knows is that the bubonic plague or something. And then whole not only China but thanks to people we’ve been talking about, the whole world has reached a new stage of lunacy. And I was like, I wasn’t patient zero, but I read somewhere that first official designee was somewhere 1 or 2 December and I left Hong Kong on the second of December. So, it’s far from Wuhan and I couldn’t have sneezed that far. I went feeling sick before I went to China. In fact, I was thinking if I could have afforded, I would have canceled the flight because I felt really horrible. And I got down from Macau and I felt great. My wife and I were thinking ‘Wow, the cold is gone.’ Well, now it’s back again and I don’t know what’s wrong now. But the thing is am I one of these movers in history that just doesn’t know what the fuck he’s doing. So, maybe I should stay at home, socially isolate myself So, that nothing happens to the world, one of those things above.
Jeff: Unbelievable. Well, give us what you think should be like the three or four or five things that the fans out there should know about based on, you’ve done a lot of writing, a lot of research, and just like I have. Just lay out what you think are some of the key things that we should know about, that are maybe not being reported in the mainstream media.
Thomas: Well, Perhaps I had to chuckle when you called me a philosopher last May. Because I always signal a philosopher something particularly special and I don’t think I’m particularly special. Bit Idiosyncratic but not particularly special. But from an academic point of view, I’m probably better understood as a philosopher than anything else because I don’t really write about facts, I’m not out there making records. I read a lot and what I’ve always tried to do is to develop concepts for understanding things, and I guess that’s what philosophers tried to do, try to give ideas about the framework. The worst disease that the news and the journalism in general has is its addiction to minutes and hours and days and its incapacity, generally speaking, to contextualize anything in that sense is a product like any other product in our society. You eat it today or throw away the key package or you wear it until the season’s over. And that you’re constantly driven to produce something which at least has the color of novelty or the color of immediacy. And life actually, I think for most people is not really So, new from day to day. In fact, most people live in fact, even I would say I live in a routine in which very few really new things happen. So, the function of novelty is not really to explain something close to my life but to entertain me or to divert me in some way, or maybe to show something that I should pay attention to, but not in the match of what we’re generally served. So, my basic problem has always been to try to make sense out of all of this daily stuff, which is largely repetitive and only varies in small aspects or minor aspects from one point to another, depending on where the person is, when they write, what they’ve had to eat, who their friends are and stuff like that. So, my first reaction to all the things that happened since I came back from changing world history, that I didn’t think enough about. Well, let’s imagine just for as a thought game that I was the one who catalyzed it. Since 2015, basically, my impression has been is that the West, meaning NATO to make it So, because that’s the armed West has been itching for a world war. Partly out of sentimentality, because it’s 100 hundred years ago that the last really major slaughter took place. And in a concentrated way, World War 2 was numerically more deadly, but it didn’t have this kind of punch that the Somme did or that Passchendaele had. It didn’t have this opportunity of generals being able to say, let’s kill 50000 on one day, it just didn’t have that kind of athletic accomplishment because it was So, diverse. And except in the Russian campaign, hardly anybody got killed in those kinds of masses and volumes like in World War One. I had this impression reading what that David Cameron and all of these old-style imperialists from public schools and prep schools were talking about that they really thought it was time to have a real proper war where they can get a lot of people killed and tried to steal some more shit. And that the only thing that was really stopping it in the United States was the bureaucratic decision like who is going to be the commander in chief and that nobody was going to be able to move, including the covert operatives, the agencies behind the government, until the bureaucratic problems of who gets what job, who gets to be promoted and stuff like that, which really do make a difference even in bureaucratic terrorism. People really do care about getting promoted, getting a good pension, and doing all that stuff. And they spend a lot of their time when they’re not overthrowing other countries or killing other people, worrying about their own careers. So, a president of the United States can’t do much to change that structure. But he can ruin people’s careers by firing them, transferring them, upsetting their path the way they are. People tend to wait when there’s a major election coming up and it’s not clear what’s going on to see who’s going to get on the gravy train and who’s going to get kicked off So, that nobody’s gonna launch a major war until that problem is settled. And I think a lot of people expected that Hillary Clinton, for instance, was going to get that, although I didn’t. I don’t believe Americans as a whole are ready to elect anybody who is not a white male. Obama will be the exception, but I don’t think that he was an exception. He is what we used to call it at school, an Oreo. And he was also, a CIA asset at least. There were other forces putting him in office. He was sort of the antidote to Bush. But he couldn’t get elected again, that he was done his two terms. Now, a big problem, who is going to be the guy who decides who has all the big jobs and who will get further in their career? And nobody is going to start a war until they know they’re going to stay in their job. This guy wins the election, a lot of people upset because he’s a real career ruiner. He’s a changed people from job to job, is something that upsets all of the bureaucrats or the career types were saying, ‘I don’t know who’s writing my evaluation report anymore.’ That’s the kind of thing that delayed, in my view, what happened in October, November. We have to move back two years at least, and according to what Bill Gates has recently said, and I allude to this in the last article I wrote, he’s very proud that he talked about the plan impending pandemic in 2015. And as I see that pretty much establishes the sort of starting point to kick-off, if you will, for what happened at the end of last year. And this is something a lot of people don’t understand about the nature of the regime, are they think about something like the CIA as an activity of people with trench coats and stuff like that or cynical bureaucrats, and then there’s the military. But that’s not really the way it works. The revolving door applies to all of the governments. It also applies to the covert government. And the covert government is really there to do the work of corporations. It has its own institutional interests because when anybody gets their own company, they also, develop their own company loyalties and they like certain things like fighting communism is a big thing for the CIA. It’s part of their DNA, you could say. It doesn’t matter what communism is but fighting it is still important. So, they’re not going to do anything that is different from that. But they don’t get that the people who run the CIA, who make the major decisions, they work for corporations. And in fact, the CIA was formed by people who used to work in corporations.
Jeff: They were Wall Street lawyers.
Thomas: Wall Street lawyers did the job that the CIA does now. You used to have in Guatemala where all these Wall Street law firms who represented the corporations. They passed the money. They hired the thugs. They organized the mercenaries. Nobody paid attention to this before Roosevelt, but that’s basically how it worked. And one of the things I’ve always tried to say is that the CIA was part of the New Deal. The CIA was part of the nationalization of previously private enterprise, foreign policy. The O.S.S. was pushed into the New Deal basically That’s the start of we want the government to give us cover because nobody will fuck with the USA and they can’t deport the USA as they could deport us. So, we use the CIA as a government cover. It never appears officially, but in the end, it’s the USA you grew up to you attack if you say the CIA agents something. And you don’t make too many problems for the US because there’s just not enough countries that are big enough to do that. So, when we have this situation to come back to 2015, is it that we can already assume the Gates has the best communication contact with all of the agencies that work abroad, So, first thing. The second thing is that he branched off apparently, I wasn’t paying too much attention to it because it’s bad enough the software he produces. It doesn’t surprise me that he be into other garbage. But the fact is that the pharmaceutical industry, as Doug Valentine has shown, is just one side of the illegal drug industry and these are both one industry with two faces. You have this situation that the people who are producing vaccines, interestingly enough, are actually very close to the people who are producing heroin, which both are optimally used by injecting. When you get into the business of international drug dealing, it doesn’t really matter if you’re working for Lamarque or you’re working for some system of labs run from Corsica. It doesn’t really matter. It’s basically the same business. They work together, they organized the prices together, the policing through the DEA stuff like that is coordinated. It’s one major cartel. When Gates got bored, putting in a childish way because I think he sounds like he’s a basically childish person. He got bored, He’d got enough money as he could possibly get out of these data processing schemes and all the things that are related to it. He got into the drug business and the drug business is really interesting because there’s just lots of money to make and no taxes.
Because you’ve always got in this area spaces where it’s covered, it’s off the books. That’s always quite attractive, It’s like prohibition. The Kennedys made their money selling liquor illegally and the main advantage of is this nobody has any records of it officially released. So, it shouldn’t be surprising that the really big rich guy with his wife would want to get in on one of the major moneymaking businesses in the world, the drug business. So, it doesn’t matter whether it’s a legal drug or the illegal drug. Now, the reason why he gets into vaccines is that vaccines are the least regulated of the regulated and they’re the closest to the military and they have the closest international stretch, So, to speak, and they’re unregulated in the sense of. When he talks about we may have to get something really fast onto the market. The military gets things as fast as they want. And the CDC and this is a point that people just keep avoiding, it’s a military organization, it’s lodged in the Health and Human Services, but it is essentially a military organization. And Robert Kennedy said this in his several interviews, people just ignore what he says. But it’s a fact. That’s why the CDC can do So, many things which other people say you’re nuts because it’s the military and the military is composed of people who have to be nuts.
Jeff: Dr. Strangelove.
Thomas: Yeah. But I mean, if you go back to 2015, he’s basically saying, although I didn’t hear it at the time, this, we are getting ready for something to prepare for a world war, because whether you use its biological weapons, which actually is the most modern appropriate way for the people who are running the world now to wage a world war without calling it a world war in the sense of. You would have real problems now, getting people to put on tin hats and go stand on them on the Somme or on the Rhine and you couldn’t get anybody to go to China because that would just be death warrant right there. Nobody in the West could stand even the size of the PLA. So, you have to fight a war in a different way. And the United States has been working on biological warfare for two centuries. Biological and chemical warfare is the real war against people who you don’t consider your equals. It was the war that one of the major weapons for conquering the West. Alcohol and smallpox did as much to take over two-thirds of the North American continent from the native inhabitants as the guns of the settlers in the cavalry. This is an old school American warfare, and it went on in World War One when the British were the first ones to use gas, Germans used it afterward, they got blamed for it. But the first gas attacks were documented as British attacks against German lines. The British used gas in Mesopotamia. We all know now how much Biological Warfare was waged against Cuba and in Central America. The real experts in this field have been trained for decades in the last century to optimize these weapons, to make them work. And that’s one of the things the CDC will do to help make it possible to organize the testing covertly and to disguise it as public health. When everybody goes running around, saying, the CDC didn’t tell Trump this and the CDC didn’t do this, they’re all talking about as if this was some local doctor who discovered a disease like a pest, and just didn’t make it to the White House to tell the guy there that there’s something going on. The guys who work for the CDC and the NIH are essentially intelligence officers. Like they have a cute little thing in the CDC called the Nash, the Epidemic Intelligence Service. And many of the people who come into the CDC or go through the CDC, go through it in this Epidemic Intelligence Service, which if you read the description of the B I S in the website of the CDC, you can tell essentially it’s a type of career training or officer training, very similar to what the CIA does.
Thomas: What you have is you have people going into the CDC, it’s a two-year program, and which is about the time that the training lasts. This is what was described in the 70s, that a junior officer trainee goes in for a period of about two years and then he gets sort of released into active duty. They don’t necessarily become permanent staff of the CDC. They go on and do other things. They get jobs in university, health school, public health schools like Bloomberg or the one at Emory, which is So, closely related to the CDC. You have all these people who are essentially trained as intelligence officers and which is a military-grade qualification. And people will say, that some how they’re not really responding. Well, it’s not their job to respond. They’re not public health officials. So, if we want to talk about public health officials, the only people we have are the people actually work in hospitals and some of the people who work in local public health services. The CDC, the National Institutes of Health are part of the national defense establishment. Their job is to prepare and defend or offend with medical, biological, or chemical means in the interests of the war department, also, called the Department of Defense. Their institutional culture is not what it is presented to be. And So, we can’t be surprised, again, because our intelligence officers, they’re necessarily going to be on the side of Trump when all of the intelligence community, what they call that, is against Trump. So, Trump is really not important in this, this is the most entertaining part. But he’s not the policymaker and he’s not the responsible actor, which is one reason why people don’t like it, because they have this idea that Trump controls things, that Trump is not going to get the blame for stuff, but Trump is not capable of controlling this apparatus. We have almost every bit of journalists come back to the fashion part will always say this in the era of Trump. Well, this is nonsense. Actually, they should be saying this is in the era of Obama or better yet, the era of Bush because the real power behind the United States government for the last 30 years has been the Bush family. And the Bush family is really interesting because Bush family, also, nobody like mentions it, not only goes back to their kinship to the National Socialist, to supporting the Nazis or being their conduit to the funding for the Nazis in the 30s and 40s, it’s also, because of their connection to the CIA. And a very interesting little thing about it is that I mentioned in one of my other articles when George Herbert Walker Bush left the CIA, he joined the board of Eli Lilly. Eli Lilly had shortly thereafter brought out Prozac and Prozac was presumably tested. I think it was tested in Jonestown, but that’s another story. The thing is that Lilly was also, supplying LSD for our CIA operation, That’s not a secret, I didn’t make that up, and other drugs. And if you look at the website of the kinds of things that Lily makes, that you can see that a lot of things are highly questionable. But their main business line is vaccination. I just had somebody tell me this, I didn’t check the numbers because I’m not very good with numbers. But I’ve been told, somebody can maybe verify this, the vaccination is really the most profitable medical product of any of them. It’s the least regulatory requirements. You can do almost anything with the vaccination and it’s cheap to make. Vaccinations are the patent medicine of the 19th century, you can claim anything for vaccination and you hardly have to get through any FDA approval and stuff like that because the CDC approves those things. You get the CDC use of a vaccination automatically, you make money because everybody goes through the military gets a dose. which of course has to be paid for it. You get tested and there’s no liability because the military doesn’t let anybody really get to the point of being viable. Usually, they get killed before they get liability. So, it’s a professional risk. And what I wrote about this last article is that. And this is what I mean about to come back to my point about the concept. I don’t know all of this, let me be very clear to anybody who’s listening. I don’t claim to know all of this. What I tried to do was take all of the things I read and put them into some kind of context, which could be accurate, which could lead people to think about the connections between things and not just the secrets of things. Because things don’t always go one, two, three, four, or five. Sometimes I go one, six, twelve. But if you don’t have a larger framework in which to consider the combinations, then it’s very difficult to randomize your perceptions and see contextless connections that are not officially explained or readily apparent from the habit of working. So, that’s what I try to do. I read stuff, I don’t try to be an expert and I’m not an expert in anything I’ve said here. I just try to see what would my normal intellectual capacity lead me to believe If I’d put these things all on the table and started arranging them and tried to make one big circle around them, what would be on this circle, the circumference of this set? You used to do a Venn diagram in school. So, what would this Venn diagram look like? And I would call this big set, World War.
Jeff: Go ahead.
Thomas: One of the sentimentalities that we share with the elite it’s that we tend to express ourselves in the same old fashion clichés. So, that we often think the best example of this is almost everybody who writes about fascism uses the word fascism in their journalism or similar writing always like this idea. And it’s implicit in the way they write that what we should be expecting are people in brown or black uniforms or blue uniforms with shiny boots and funny hats and strange symbols on their uniforms, marching around in large formations.
Thomas: This was common in every political movement in the 1930s.It’s not common today. People mistake the fashion of fascism in the thirties, which was a fashion of all political movements in Europe, at least, with fascism itself. So, people keep waiting, when are we going to get the fascist? Well, it’s like, sort of saying, well, when are we going to get. Reminds me, what is it, ‘Is it soup yet?’
That was a slogan for we’ll lift it. When they invented instant soup, you put the water, it was all ready.
Jeff: The instant soup. Yeah.
Thomas: Yeah and the child would come in and say ‘mom is it soup yet?’ And the thing is I don’t use it, I actually buy chickens or beef, whatever. And I stopped eating soup because this is what I eat, Instant soup. I wanted to make sure that it’s not hard to make, but I always had this fear of making soup because I didn’t know if I could do it right, I cook a lot, but I’ve never made soup, and now I make all my soups myself. And I think it’s really easy to make soup, but it takes time and you have to use basic stuff and you can’t cheat. Otherwise, it tastes like shit. You have to give it time, and if you give it a lot of time, it cooks down, it gets really dead and you didn’t really get a nice flavor. What I’m saying is that people are waiting for the soup. They’re waiting to think, well it’s not fascism yet. And some people said when is it going to come? well, it’s already here. In fact, it’s already been here since 1945. I hate to disappoint people, 1945, the fascist won in the West, they didn’t win the Soviet Union and they lost in China in 1949. But in the West, they won. And that’s what people don’t understand. They won and they been in charge for 70 to 80 years. And people say, ‘how could that be? We are living in freedom.’ If you talk to people who lived in the NSDAP period from 1936 to 1945, most of them, if they were not communists or socialists or Jews or queer or something like that, didn’t have any problems, living under Hitler until bombs fell on their head. And I can remember this from my mother in law. She was a young girl through most of the war, and she lived in Lubrizol. And until bombs actually fell on the city and people were homeless and there started to burn deep, there was a little bit of industry there, So, there were some bombing, but not as much bombing as in Hamburg or in Dusseldorf, in that area. So, it was sort of a surprise, they’re dropping bombs because, yes, of course, people died in Russia and France went off to war, but it didn’t really change life. And you will find that a lot of people will tell you that, and they didn’t make it up. War was just something that happened, they were there and if they weren’t personally affected, and until 1945 and 1944, a lot of people were not So, affected. They had shortages and stuff like that. But they have been through World War One where they had even more shortages and they’d have the depression behind them. So, there was work and there was stuff going on, it was not an easy life, but they hadn’t had it easy since 1918. So, there was no real problem. The idea that fascism has to be terrible for everybody and therefore we notice it, is really absurd. Most people are quite OK under fascism, as they have in the United States since 1945, except they weren’t communists or queer or black. Blacks really not found anywhere in the United States, But those are the people who suffered and they always suffered and they still suffered today. Which is why I think to come back to something else is that you really have to revise another concept and that is, what does the American elite stand for? Well, I think they stand for two things, and that’s why they’re fighting this war. They stand for white supremacy and to understand that I write in this last article, this is not what this vulgar racism, this is not running around in white, although people do that, it’s not the core of that argument. If people like Americans and especially Australians, South Africans understand the concept a bit better because they’ve been forced to deal with it more. But the Australians and the United States citizens, they don’t understand this at all. They have to deal with this concept of settler colonialism and they read Gerald Horne’s book because of that, it’s a really short one. But all of his books basically explained how this works. They should read this book that I also, frequently cite ‘The apocalypse of settler colonialism.’ And then you understand that what’s really driving us right now, into this abyss, So, to speak, it’s a small group of people who, for the last 250 years have seen their positions secured by the principles of white supremacy, which also, coincide with what we call capitalism. Meanwhile, I’m not really convinced that capitalism is a very good term for what we are talking about, because as you described to me and there are other people who tried to theorize in a sense capital, what many of the things we associate with capitalism are not necessarily capitalist. In fact, most people in the west didn’t call it capitalism until Marx came up with this term, they called it adventurism. It was a business venture, meaning an adventure. Marx really popularized the term capitalism in describing this process or calling it dealing with capital. But the idea that people were capitalists in the 19th century is an anachronism. But one thing is very clear, they were always anti-communist. And anti-communism is not opposed to somebody because of the Communist party. It’s because they’re being opposed to anybody who wants to take their wealth. So, they could call a Huey Long a communist. And Huey Long was never a communist. The last thing, his life would have been a communist. But he did have a problem with the way wealth was allocated and that got him killed and people forget about that. And he was painted as a fascist. He was not a fascist, he was a populist.
Jeff: He was a populist. Yeah.
Thomas: He was a populist and he was a threat to the people who were fascists, those who are running the government here in Washington and New York. And there’s no doubt is that also, a crazy guy who killed Huey Long, like all assassinations in the United States are always done by individual crazy people. Nobody in the United States believes to this day, with the possible exception of Kennedy, that in the United States, power is changed just like everyplace else in the world through bribery and murder and inherited, people, inherit offices in the United States, still. Look at the number of people in so-called elected offices whose main claim to be there is that their father or their grandfather, their uncle, their cousin, or somebody else was there. Americans should get away from this idea that they are different from everybody else, politically or historically. And to do that, you have to face the fact that it’s a country based on white supremacy and anticommunism. And if you see that as a sort of overarching Venn diagram, then what Bill Gates is really trying to do is what all people at his position and like his idol, John Rockefeller, was trying to do, protect his stolen goods from anybody, and to make more, to steal more. And this is consistent with these two basic principles. So, why just choose the drug industry? First of all, it’s one of the most constantly profitable because you can’t just measure the drug industry in this debate, pageants, or generic. The drug industry also, has its share of the illegal drug industry, which is why the Americans fight in Afghanistan. NATO is in Afghanistan to protect the drug plantations there, and in South America, the same thing. Because this is a major cash stream. And Gates is no idiot, just like Kennedy was no idiot with prohibition. He made money on alcohol, the alcohol prohibiting people was supported by the people wanted to make money on the prohibition. Not only by the people who add other political reason like Ford, who was really interested in prohibition and people who saw alcohol consumption, especially in social gatherings, as a danger for the political stability of the ruling class because almost all of the great people coming from Europe organized its pubs and restaurants. So, I’m getting in a long, long circle around to my view of the current situation. Prohibition was introduced not simply because some fanatical teetotalers thought we should all stop drinking, but because the business needed to control the workforce, largely because they were immigrants and they couldn’t, especially from southern Europe, the Protestant ruling class had no access to their Catholic communities, but they did have a way to prohibit political activity by closing all the restaurants and bars that served alcohol, which was a difficult thing for Portuguese, Spanish, Greeks and Italians, Yugoslavs, anybody from southern Europe for whom drinking wine is just a normal activity and a big part of social life. What we have now is a process that we’ve got this sort of framework of 1945 fascism. That’s why it was So, easy to import all the Nazis and the Japanese bioweapons people because they’re all part of the same school. The winners went to the United States. The losers, as Bach writes in his book about all the Germans who died in U.S. camps, the losers stayed in Europe. They didn’t get permission to go around, they didn’t get permission to go to the United States So, the losers got to die or starve. The winners went to the United States and got to be rich or worked for rich people. In this context, what we have and this is sort of the funny thing about Bill Gates is we have a kind of prohibition mentality and people would send us, and when Nancy Reagan came in saying, ‘Just say no to drugs.’ The pension was a big part of the international drug-running ring. But you can’t make money on drugs if they’re legal. If heroin’s legal everywhere and nobody has to pay the enormous price, there’s not the instrument for marketing. The price goes down. You don’t make any more money on it because it’s not expensive to produce. Not really, in the quantities that it’s produced. Yes, it’s expensive, but you don’t need big factories to do this, like producing Prozac or something like that. Any case, you have this system that needs these drugs for psychological warfare and for control. And you have to make it work, you need to have a prohibition regime. So, when people usually attributed to the loony right. Say, Well, Gates has got this idea, this ID 2020 year or whatever, he’s going to inject to have everybody injected through his patent medicine with a chip that allows them to be traced. What happens is a reaction that I’ve found is following, people run immediately with a very bad reading of George Orwell, who read my view and I’ve said this before, is one of the worst written one of the worst books of the 20th century. The worst works not because it’s So, bad, but because it’s So, incorrectly interpreted, So, misinterpreted, So, abused, that one can hardly recognize the really interesting things that he points out and why he pointed them out, which is another question. But don’t we have a situation, everyone’s like, ‘Wow he’s interested in Big Brother.’ Well, he’s not really interested in Big Brother, he’s interested in the same things since fascism, white supremacy and anti-communism, and staying rich are getting richer and all that and making sure his families are rich and doing all the things the Rockefeller did, which was to produce a long generation of very rich people. To go through that, to stuff a point of view, he needs a prohibition regime and it doesn’t really matter what kind, but he’s not like most rich people, they only have one or two ideas besides making money. And his special thing is the state of technology things. He got a big break that helped him become an entrepreneur by getting a deal with ideas. And people forget or not forget but they don’t realize that IBM, which is a very established great company, like my uncle, worked more like a young guy while he was still doing his engineering degree. IBM produced the basic data processing for the Nazi regime to manage patient camps. They also, produced the equipment or help produce equipment for the Phenix program. So, much of Gadhafi’s based assassination program in Vietnam. And they’re a one-stop-shop for people management, population management. They started very early in the electronic data processing of people. And this is where the genetics, So, to speak of Bill Gates, he’s from the electronic processing of people and he can’t think of processing without anything EDP, that’s just his obsession. But for him to do this, make this quantum leap. He needs a prohibition regime and this vaccine is like there’s an inverse prohibition. If it’s implemented the way he would say, in fact, in his BBC interviews, what he basically says is he knows that not everyone will get it immunized, he even said there won’t be enough. What has to happen and this is where another profit aspect comes in, is that the vaccination will not be available to everybody. People don’t have it, will simply be out of luck. So, it’s not about universal inoculation, or vaccinations or immunizations. It’s about selective immunization because A, the supply has to be limited in order to keep the price up to and make money on it. And B, because of the principles of white supremacy, one can’t immunize inferior beings or one has to immunize them differently. And supply the idea that you will find unavoidably people who will not want to be immunized will mean that they will have to pay the premium to get around on life without immunization, which is what happens underfoot. People drank it all these up, but they had to pay more for it. They had to take risks. They didn’t have to take when it was legal. So, let’s come back to one thing that is another aspect of this problem, it’s already with us. And now in China that they were going to clip everything down. They didn’t just announce that everybody has to stay home, they had mobilized every resource to make sure that the economy for basic human needs right away. That’s the way I. I wasn’t there, I’m only going by reports but that’s the impression I got. It seems to be the way. If somebody somewhere contradicts me, I don’t claim to be an expert, that’s my impression, that’s the context in which I see this. I do not think we can compare the Chinese reactions to the situation virus with what’s going on in the West because you’re two complete political, culturally different objectives environment. I still think there’s reason to believe that China would have acted to the start of this war or to the continuation of this war. The West tried to cover up for that. That’s one reason why people got this virus. Not because they really care about us. Nothing people were involved in this war. They don’t care about any more about how many deaths are in Europe or North America than they cared about the number of deaths on the Somme or Passchendaele. We have to get over that sentimentality. They don’t need us. And it’s not their problem how many people die. In fact, it could be useful. They just have to try to be sure which ones they need, that they don’t die or that they can be replaced. But that’s not the point I want to come back. The problem we’re faced with now or we will be faced with it very quickly. Is that all of this kind of social distancing, as it’s euphemistically called, will not keep people from doing the things they have to do to survive. They will not. There is a point at which people will need their haircuts. They will need to eat with other people, they will need to meet. They will do all of these things as the government does not have the manpower or womanpower to control it all. They can’t put enough people on the ground to do all of this and they can use telephones and stuff like that, but they’re still not committed. But what they can do and this is what happens and in fact, Saramago describes this really well in three books, which people should read if they have nothing better to do while they’re sitting at home under lockdown. Read three books by José Saramago. One is seeing, the other is blindness. The other one is called something like, I think of the title, ‘A Time Without Death’ or something like that. It’s a very short book, but these three books are really wonderful descriptions of the various phases of the situation we have now. What is going to happen, and I think this is a terrible prediction is we’re going to find that a general prohibition regime is going to take place for all normal life, for normal people, because as long as there’s the official prohibition against the meeting, I guess, running your shop against doing this, the people who are, especially in the country where I live, dependent on work. They don’t have any extra money to live on, they don’t have any Social Security payments to rely on. And the state doesn’t have the money to pay it even if they wanted to. They’re going to have to do business and as long as it’s prohibited, they have some options. They do it behind doors and they hope nobody noticed. They pay the police not to pay attention or they pay somebody else to keep the police away or they pay somebody in the government services who, when the complaint comes and they’re going to be fined, looks the other way and doesn’t claim them. So, what we’re going to find if we don’t have a better public way of dealing with this problem of a publicly accountable way. I don’t mean an administrative solution, a publicly accountable way that puts policies to everybody So, everyone can see exactly what’s going on. We’re going to have an entire black market of corruption, but civil service, corruption in the police, which more than we have now, and extortion and denunciation among ordinary people just following the normal course of lower and middle-class life. I think that’s worse than a virus we could have.
Jeff: Sounds pretty bleak. It sounds like the ultimate dystopian novel.
Thomas: Well, the thing is, it’s people. That’s why I think all is So, bad because people never learn how to read it. They were all taught to read it as an anti-anti-communist .l, and not to read it as an analysis of British society, which it was, and to try to understand what anti-communism really means. Anticommunism has nothing to do with communism, but anti-communism is a self as an independent ideological configuration. Nobody is going to learn that in school, but that’s what they have to do to start to understand this. Recently I had to go to my haircuts and I couldn’t get my haircut, but I need to make my feet and my hands took care of. I don’t need to go into detail as to why, but part of the reason that I play a musical instrument, So, I try to and I need my fingernails cut a certain way. I couldn’t do this in my normal shop except by appointment and in the backroom, the woman says to me, I have to work. Otherwise, I’ll go crazy, part one. I have to pay my debts, part two. But I’m not allowed to do this. Right now, everybody’s pretty civilized because nobody’s hurting quite yet. But when this becomes a financial disaster, if there is not a very quick restoration of social rights and the sense of mobility in normal business like they sort of started to do in Austria and in Sweden, then this is just going to profit people who benefit from the same mentality as an illegal drug business. And this was going to cost the economy lots of money because, of course, none of this money is taxed, but it’s going to take money out of the system and put it into a level of people who are going to benefit and will have an interest in Gates’s agenda, an interest in prolonging the opportunity to do epidemiological measures, of keeping people restricted in what they do when their ordinary lives So, that they will have to pay somebody just to be able to do work. Last year was a normal life.
Jeff: When we had our enemies.
Thomas: And I think many people who, you don’t have to go back, this is an integral part of the wartime economy. And when World War 2 in Europe meant as World War 1 did, a massive growth in corrupt black and gray economy, which cost people lots of money even after the war was over and everything was destroyed. We have this process already, not yet starting, but it will start if this continues and I think this is why we should see this also, as the creation of a wartime situation, that the wartime economy is already being prepared. And unless people stop this trend and resist this trend and refuse to be submitted to such social distancing regulations and economic regulation of this sort. They’re going to be in a full-scale war economy and they won’t find it the least bit, in German, I would say enlightening. That’s sort of why when I lie in my bed here, as I am now and I want to close with perhaps one or two another point that this is contrary to this. Let’s take a moment from an alternative perspective to what I’ve just said, let’s assume that this is all just a natural phenomenon. Gates is just an opportunist and he’s still a psychopath. There’s no question about that. But he’s an opportunist and the people who are in the CDC are opportunists and they are short-termers and they are just jumping on whatever they think is possible to make the most amount of money, and that’s it. And they have no big plan. I don’t really believe that because no corporations in the world operate in time frames of less than 10 years. If that’s standard for corporations, all of these people are corporate types, then they are capable of thinking for 10-year terms, even if it’s not their personal benefit. But never mind. Let’s imagine that none of that is the case, that whoever is listening to that would like to believe I’m a fanatic can say, no, I’ll take a moment and say maybe I’m not a fanatic, that this is just one way of interpreting it, the other way to say it’s a natural disaster, it broke out in lots of places and everybody wants to blame somebody. The West blames China and China says, well, looks like the West, but it’s a natural disaster. If it’s a natural disaster, how natural is it? I think a natural disaster would mean let’s start with people who always build their houses on the edge of volcanoes, and this is something I was thinking about this morning because I was really not feeling very well and I haven’t been anywhere, what it could be exposed to a more desperate disease than we normally are, but I kind of fluctuate. Some days I feel like I’m going to die and some days I feel like I just have a slight cough or just a little bit of gas because I don’t get to feel myself. So, I may be dying of cancer, maybe dying of Corona, I don’t know but I’m going to die, no question about that. At least I hope so, I don’t think I could stand living forever in this world the way we have it here. But for taking that into account, natural disaster, why do people think about vaccines? well, vaccines are industrial responses. The idea of vaccinating people is that you manufacture this bulk of sauce or whatever and you give all of it. What’s the closest thing we know of this kind of treatment? It’s the battery Chicken. What are we really talking about? We’re talking about how do humans live.
Well, they’re 20 percent of the population in China, and in the past last 70 years, they have experienced massive urbanization. They haven’t got their air pollution problem under control. And they’ve got, a small amount of five million living very close together, working very hard, being very nice Chinese and all that, and it’s my general impression. And we have far fewer people in a far more chaotic and selfish society on the western peninsula of Eurasia. And some of our relatives on this continent, to the rest of us called North America. But on the whole, a relatively small portion of the population ruled by Psychopaths who, despite the fact that there’s an objective benefit for our species is not being herded together too closely insist on herding us into very small, relatively small spaces So, that they can make money, real estate or something else in order to make people live in smaller spaces than is really healthy for them, in combination to the really unhealthy. So, work is even worse. You have our social organization, we really still penultimate the pig farm in North Carolina or the chicken batteries in various countries. That’s the way humans are organized. So, it’s really not a surprise that from time to time when all the people are in their battery, they’re not going to get sick when everybody gets sick. The best or proven way to solve the problem is to reduce the density of the population. Not enough room people, we’ve got lots of space, but the density for organized space differently. This is what I wrote my doctoral dissertation about land reform. Beneath all of this crime in which we live is a simple fact that too many people live in too small space and too few people own too much land and control the place of space. And So, create the basic conditions for unhealthy living. And nobody’s discussing the fact that if you keep people in chicken stalls, hundreds of them at the same time then don’t expect that would prevent mass sickness. I think the people for real estate, don’t give a shit about that. But that’s quite independent of the question of what Mr. Gates and people like him do. Although you notice they all make sure they have lots of space to live in, they don’t look for living in small cubicles, stuff like that. They’re not trying to save space. They know something we don’t know.
Jeff: On their private islands, their yachts, their real estates.
Thomas: But, I don’t know here, you can see probably that if you look at the history of Thailand and other places around the world, the concentration of people into large cities is a relatively new phenomenon. Of course, China had big cities always, if you read history but there were lots and lots of more people living in the countryside.
Jeff: Yeah. Before Mao and the Communist revolution, 90 percent of the people lived in the countryside.
Thomas: Yeah, and the thing is that what the communist revolution did as a decision led to the industrialization and industrialized China or the Soviet Union, meant the Middle East to the extent whether it was possible in any other way, I don’t know. But Western industrialization took the land away, put back people into closed areas and get them to replace machines, then you got machines you didn’t need them in the West, we do a lot of work. In China, in some places, you modernize and you’ve got new way new things to do, or you changed the work of labor-intensive to machine intensive. Andre Gunder Frank wrote a very interesting book, which I say often cite awful, I think people ought to read too, published in 1995 called ReORIENT. And I saw him give a paper in Santiago de Chile in 2005, about this book, and he said it’s actually normal what we see now, normal in the sense of, it’s normal that China should be the center of the world. It’s also, normal that the way the machines didn’t develop in the same way in China that they did in the West, because in the West they were never enough people to work compared to China and India. You could do all sorts of things with people, China and India, always. In their entire history of the country, you didn’t have enough people to do that much work in the West. So, the economy of the world was always there until the end of the 18th century. We should not surprised at what’s going on right now, but we should be So, amazed that the white folks along those have managed to keep control for So, long now, given their severely inferior organization. They’re utterly backward education system and they’re condescending our way of doing things. I mean, they’re not very efficient at all.
Jeff: Thomas, who wrote ReORIENT?
Thomas: Andre Gunder Frank.
Jeff: Okay. You will have to send that to me. I don’t know how to say, Gunter Frank.
Thomas: Well, it’s sighted in several of my articles. If you look at my article reorientation. This is the what I published, there’s a citation there.
Jeff: All right, good. Now I also, ask you to send me your nine recent articles about your career, your perspective on coronavirus, and I’ll include that on the website page on China Rising.
Thomas: So, listen, in the idea of summing up something, we have two really important things and they both relate together, we have to avoid the war that has started becomes a general war economy, war economy for average people. We have to avoid the prohibition of social interaction. We have to restore social interaction. And we have to encourage people not to be intimidated by each other under the idea that somebody is got a cold and or that they could die by meeting them because they’re going to die anyway.
There’s a note I make it in one of my papers and I want to say this is really important, the West is a very limited culture to the extent that it is a culture. And one of the things struck me overload in a very superficial way, as far as I can tell, it’s really the only culture that has no longer any nature or ancestral worship, Christianity is based on that idea of eternal youth. Immortality is nothing else but eternal youth. The idea that you die to become immortal is to live forever, too. Nobody wants to live forever as an old person, So, they have to live forever as a young person who dies as a boy or not a boy, but 32 years old, like my dad. You die young, that’s the thing because you want to be young forever. Bill Gates does everything he can in his appearance to look young. He’s 65, like you. He wants to look young. He wants to be young because they have no respect for the past or for their ancestors and they have no respect for the planet, they have no respect for nature from which their life came. And I say, this is my superficial experience and what I read in here, even in the things that Mao wrote, that Asians, even the militaristic Japanese, even Asians have this sense that they owe something to their ancestors. They owe something to nature. It’s not all just for them.
Jeff: There’s some perspective.
Thomas: They aren’t going to live forever, they will be ancestors to somebody else. So, they have to behave with a certain kind of moral and ethical responsibility that is absolutely missing in Western culture, it’s missing in Christianity, which is the light coat or the main culture of Western, even atheists in the West think as Christians do, and they have the same problem. So, they really don’t respect the past. And I don’t mean, bowing on your knees before, I mean, respecting it. They don’t respect old people, they don’t respect the nature that they live in. And this is why the West is driven by intellectual nihilism and psychopathic homicidal tendencies. Because they have nothing which limits their conception of life. And we have to come to some point philosophically and spiritually, but also, in practice, to restore or to find if we never had it, respect for our past, our respect for the world we live in. And that has nothing to do with some Dwarf from Sweden telling us that we’re all going to die of global warming, this has to do with daily life. And once we are doing that, we don’t have to be afraid of people in uniform.
Jeff: Let’s hope that we can avoid the war economy and avoid the prohibition, and avoid social distancing. I’m not worried about socialist countries like China and Cuba and Venezuela and Iran and anti-imperial countries like Russia and Vietnam, and there are several others, Eretria in Africa, I’m not worried about them, but I am worried about my friends and relatives, in the West. I think that’s where the danger is there. I think the DPRK, China, the socialist, communist, anti-imperialist countries have solidarity. Cuba, they’ve got there a sense of solidarity and a sense of brotherhood to move on and maybe even be stronger as a result of this. But, boy, for the West, as you say, NATO, or as I call it, Eurangloland, It’s very, very, very worrisome and I just hope that we can have a sense of optimism, that we can avoid the war economy, prohibition, social distancing, etc.
Well, Thomas, this has been an amazing conversation. We should not wait 11 months like we did this time. But it’s been a wonderful talk, a wonderful discussion.
Thomas: Maybe there’s a chance I’ll be going to Asia. I’m really curious about this or maybe I’ll choke on whatever I’ve got before that who knows. I mean, this is the great chicken and I could be just one of those chickens. It doesn’t make it out of the stall in time. I’ve always thought of myself as being a kind of farm chicken that gets to run around free.
Jeff: Free range.
Thomas: Yes, that’s right. I’ve always thought of myself as a free-range chicken, but there are lots of other chickens around. And I don’t know if it’s a chicken disease, maybe I can get it just as well as anybody else. But I thought maybe it would be interesting to be a chicken in China for a while.
Jeff: Yeah, I think you’ll find something there and I’ll come to visit you there. If not, well hopefully this summer if we can even get on there. We can meet either Portugal or France or maybe somewhere in between Madrid, who knows.
Thomas: Well, I had this idea before, that if I got the job or a job, let’s say, and I hate flying, that I would try to get a cabin on a freighter and it would cost me about as a customer, about 3000 euro or something like that. But it can take me about six weeks, depending on how often the ship stops. But I thought the idea of going from Lisbon to Shanghai-like 100 years ago, would be an interesting way to start a tour in China.
Jeff: It was the Portuguese that went to Hong Kong first back in 1517. So, there you go, you’re just following in the footsteps of the Portuguese pirates back in 1517.
Thomas: I would hope to be less piratical. But my idea was that it would give me some time. I thought I get to see things like I wouldn’t otherwise see. And I would never take a cruise just for a vacation of this sort. I will be going there and I’d take my six weeks to get sort of acclimated myself. And my friends would say you’d be in prison for six weeks. What would you do there?
Jeff: Well, read a book.
Thomas: Yeah. Trying to learn my musical instruments and stuff like that. But I thought about this going through Suez, going around through the Straits of Malacca. That this will be a really one-time experience. The idea is to redirect to come back with the Trans-Siberian. And then I would have the dream travels that I’ve always wanted to do before I die.
Jeff: I predict it was the next 12 months we’ll get to meet each other in person.
Thomas: Well, I’ll at least send you an invitation to my funeral. I celebrated my 59th birthday about my 60th, and I had the invitation printed out the way you were making it out So, that when somebody dies, I’ve filed papered and everything, and I sent it around to people. And they said, why are you celebrating 59th?, I said, ‘Well because I don’t know if I am gonna be here when I am 60, as I would like to be at my own party and I somehow managed to live to be 60. And I don’t know if I am going to live to be 61. But in any case, emotionally, I really can’t estimate what the best way to react to this situation is, there are So, many negative things and on the other hand, the one thing I do not share with a lot of people who are the loony left or the loony right, I don’t believe that everything in history is predestined. I always think of history as a retrograde situation. We don’t really have any history, at least not. We don’t live history, we use history as a tool to live in the present. I’m always trying to tell people that the history I make or I write is not necessarily the truth because we really don’t know what happened in the past. We can’t go back like God or maybe in some cases, it will be nice, but we can’t go back. But structuring our experience by referring to things that we have leftover or the behavior that we can say, OK, yesterday and last year was, it can be a helpful way. A lot of people don’t use history at all, they get up in the morning and they only march ahead. And I won’t say that’s a bad way to live. But I think that there are things that we can only understand with this historical message, at least in our culture. And that’s only one that I live it up to this time. When I say that looking at the history of things, I don’t think the history of things shows that we are going to be exterminated by our own behavior. I really don’t think so. I think that to be optimistic, I think humans have a lot in common with rats and cockroaches. You can go to the most luxurious place in New York or London or any place. And you’ve paid thousands and thousands. OK. I’d never pay thousands, but I’ve been there and know what it costs, and you’ll still find rats and cockroaches.
A little anecdote, It’s a footnote in my article. But when we come back to the CDC, the CDC is located near Emory University in Georgia. At Emory University, as one of its major donors is the Rollins family, especially the Rollins family, its name to the School of Public Health at Emory University. Bloomberg gave his money to start the School of Public Health at Johns Hopkins. So, there’s a financial interest directly in the Bloomberg group to inflate all this Corona stuff. But the interesting thing about Emory, the Emory School of Public Health, it’s called the Rollins School of Public Health. So, Rollins’s family made their money in pest control. And I make a footnote as when I think of pest control at institutions like CDC or university, I think of Zyklon B, which was originally for pest control. There are people in the world who just don’t know how to think about anything except killing. So, you have this university which is one of the best private universities in the United States. With the campus of the CDC and a major health care system in Georgia, a perfect conduit for all sorts of medical testing or pseudo-medical testing, chemical testing, biological testing, all located right close to somebody who gets a lot of money for killing things considered unadmirable, killing the pest. Gates is somebody who can identify with that and identify the facts that people in Asia and Africa, South America are free in pest. He doesn’t say that literally, but his whole attitude when he talks is very clear. He’s talking about the threat of the poor. That’s why he’s basically anti-communism. But what I wanted to say is that despite all of these companies dedicated to killing what they considered a pest, they’re certain that the biggest pest of all, the human race simply seems to survive all these people. I have this idea that unless the sun explodes, which would be the only significant climate change we have to worry about, or the internal Earth core disintegrates. This the human species is like species of rats and cockroaches, they developed immunity to anything that tries to destroy itself. So, the one optimistic viewpoint is that every time you think about whether you want to crush, a cockroach or kill a rat, that could be you. And killing one of them may be necessary, but you’ll never be able to kill them all. And Mao said it, I wish I knew where that quote was or I could find the exact origin of this, but I was told at school and the university, I find it one of the most wonderful responses I ever heard to the threat of nuclear war. And he was supposed to have said, ‘Well, at the end of a nuclear war, every fifth survivor will be Chinese.’
Think about that. The West has more to fear from mass destruction than China ever will have because there aren’t enough Westerners, And they do eat each other. I hope that was an optimistic note. I don’t like to suppose that everything is over until you’re actually buried.
Jeff: Thomas, thank you very much. This has been a fun interview, and I didn’t do much talking, but I enjoyed. I thought you were really on a riff.
Thomas: Well, you asked this and that’s what I prepared for.
Jeff: And that’s what I wanted, I mean who wants to listen to me. And So, you were really on a riff and you were terrific and enlightening and educating and informative and funny and at the end, hopeful. And So, that’s a good way to close out, and So, thank you very much. Let’s try to maybe get together more often instead of waiting 11 months. And hopefully this summer we’ll meet each other either in Portugal, France, or maybe later.
Thomas: Let me ask a technical detail.
Thomas: You’ve been all over China, you know where this University of Science and technology is?
Jeff: Yeah, I think it’s in Wuhan.
Thomas: No, it’s not in Wuhan, it’s a little bit further down, around the confluence of a river, I forgot the name and the Yangtze, it’s between Wuhan and Shanghai.
Jeff: Oh, I am sorry, it’s in Hefei, Anhui. That’s one of the best schools in China, it’s really like the M.I.T. of China.
Thomas: But what’s interesting to me is I’ve been trying to find books and maps and atlases and stuff like that, things to give me any more detail about what China is physically like. Not just descriptions and words, but also, geography. It’s hard, it’s not very easy here. I have to go there to second-hand books to look for an Atlas on China. That’s hard to believe. It’s the largest country in terms of population and the fifth largest, but there’s no atlas of the country available in the West, it’s the current edition. Amazing.
In any case, the reason why I asked you is I was trying to get an idea, what the terrains like there. Because I purposely looked for places near rivers or near the sea and I tried to get an idea, what this place would be like, because of the program at the university at the engineering faculty in Hunan, I think it is and the University of Illinois, whatever. They decided to send my application to the language center because they got the engineering faculty, which doesn’t surprise me, but I can find something about the location there, this sort of canals and we talked about that the last time. But I tried to figure out what kind of geographical situation this University of Science and Technology, the place where it’s located about what is that like?
Jeff: Well, I have actually been to Hefei Anhui but I have to be honest with you, I only spent a couple of days there and this is way back in the 90s and the courses are completely changed.
Thomas: But, not So, much about the city itself but the fit geographical location. I mean, is it on the hills? is it on the coast? or on the banks of a river? Is it flat? I live in a hilly city, for instance. Is it a hilly city? Is it.
Jeff: No, it’s not on a river, it’s near the river. And it’s actually very close to Wuhan, that’s why I was thinking the University of Science was in Wuhan. That area right through there is pretty flat, although after you get outside of halfway to the outside of Hefei Anhui, but then the whole plain, that whole area right there is a flat floodplain and that’s where some of the richest agriculture is in China. There’s a big lake there. But it’s one of the most intense agriculture in China in that area because it’s a floodplain.
Thomas: That’s good to know because I don’t really want to be in a lot of hills if I can avoid it. I’m not a hill person. I’m flat-area.
Jeff: It is but it mounts It is simply, 1500-meter mountains, outside of to the south. Which is basically a gigantic floodplain.
Thomas: Yeah. That’s sort of like, we have mountains in Portugal too. But Porto, like borderline for me because I can’t ride a bicycle very well.
Jeff: Well, you can ride a bicycle in Hefei.
Thomas: Okay. That’s what I wanted to know. That’s good news.
Jeff: Well, if you need a letter of recommendation, just ask.
Thomas: What do you say?
Jeff: I said, if you need a letter of recommendation, just ask, I’ll be happy to give you one. I lived there for 16 years. I think they would at least read it.
Thomas: Yeah, I’m gonna see this, we’re trying to schedule this Skype interview, and then let’s see what happens. I have to go through and remind everybody else to make sure that they’re still looking at me or whatever because I want to go to someplace there. I’ll take just about anything for the experience.
Jeff: Listen, guy, we’ll stay in touch.
Bon chance mon ami..
Thomas: I just wish you as much luck as possible getting everything straightened out when those unfortunate areas because there are lots of, we all need a little bit of cash.
Jeff: Yeah, our Social Security is just going to have to be delayed for six months, but there are worse things in life. When I think about, 25,000 children under the age of five die every day for food on the altar of global capitalism, I count my blessings.
Thomas: They don’t die of Corona? God, how could that be? we have to write on then they at least get some extra money.
Jeff: We will, of course, stay in touch by e-mail and I will let you know when this is produced So, that you can share it with their friends and family and colleagues around the world. All right.
Thomas: Bye-bye. Have a nice weekend.
Jeff: Same to you. Bye-bye.
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Why and How China works: With a Mirror to Our Own History
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