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By Jeff J. Brown
Pictured above: Yesteryear and today. Left, two of singer-songwriter Jim Glover’s albums from the 1960s, No Need to Explain and Outsider. On the right, Jim and his lady friend, Jean Hewitt, at a recent outdoor concert in the US.
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Sixteen years on the streets, living and working with the people of China, Jeff
Original article with video and audio podcasts:
Lucky to be alive: the amazing, truth telling life story of singer-songwriter Jim Glover, and the Kafkaesque nexus of American culture, the CIA, JFK, George and Barbara Bush, J. Edgar Hoover, Allen Dulles, Phil Ochs – and that’s just for starters! China Rising Radio Sinoland 200612
Jeff J. Brown: Good morning everybody, this is Jeff J. Brown, China Rising Radio Sinoland in Chiang Mai, Thailand. And we are going cultural, political today in the United States, Brandon, Florida. I am truly honoured to have Jim Glover on the show today. How are you doing, Jim?
Jim Glover: Very good. Welcome to Florida.
Jeff: Where is Brandon? Is it up in the peninsula?
Jim: It’s just east of Tampa. It’s kind of a suburb of Tampa.
Jeff: All right, great. Well, first, a little bit about Jim. Jim is very modest these days. I went to his Facebook and there’s almost nothing there. But I can tell you that I have learned a lot about him in the last few months. Back in the 1960s, he had a popular career as a singer-songwriter, and he can tell you more about it later. He’s a very much anti- imperialist.
He is the first guest I’ve ever had on this show who said, I don’t care if I sell any records, I’m happy not to be having to sell records anymore. Anyway, I will list here his email, his Facebook. He does have a YouTube channel. And if you just type in Jim Glover in YouTube. He’s actually got a bunch of songs on there. Thank you so much for being on the show today, Jim.
Jim: Well, you’re welcome. There’s another Jim Glover, Chevrolet guy in Texas, who a lot of people will get that one when they are looking for me.
Jeff: Need to buy a Camaro.
Jim: Yeah, that’s a good idea. Well, the car I’ve got now is working fine. Good old Japanese car.
Jeff: There you go. Well, let’s go ahead and get started. Jim, please tell us about yourself growing up and your arc of awareness about Western empire. I understand your father was a socialist.
Jim: Well, he was farther left than a socialist.
Jeff: Oh, he was a communist.
Jim: Yeah. He didn’t carry a card. They used to call them fellow travelers.
Jeff: A fellow traveler.
Jim: Yeah. That’s the word. Well, he married my mom in Columbus, Ohio, at Ohio State
University. That’s where they met. Her mom was Jewish and her folks came from Russia-Poland, and which is now Belarus. And they were very radical too, my grandparents on my mom’s side. My grandmother considered herself a Bolshevik. But they came over like in after the first Russian revolution 1917. Well, they came over after the 1905 revolution. My mom was born here in 1913, so she was born before the real revolution, Bolshevik revolution.
So I was born September 5th, 42 on Labor Day. So for communist parents, I guess, it was quite a big deal being born on Labor Day. I must have been a pain to my mom as I was like over ten pounds. She said you already were supposed to be born. But it was wild growing up under the McCarthy era and all that stuff. And so my dad was involved with the Communist Party, with Gus Hall. He was Gus Hall’s lieutenant. Well, the first thing I remember about politics was this guy who was actually Allen Dulles, remember him?
Jeff: Of course.
Jim: He walked with this clubfoot and his pipe acting like Sherlock Holmes and that was about 1947, I was about five years old. So this is just before the CIA was set up. And he had his own private agency, I figured out later on after I read a lot about him. So, “Jim, come on downstairs”. So I go down there and my dad is throwing up all these papers into the furnace, down the basement. So I was standing right between my dad and Allen Dulles. My dad says, Jim never forget this. What’s he trying to prove, am I not supposed to be seeing or something? And so later on, I asked my dad what it was about. Years later, and he says, well, that was about, his name was Jack Le Blanc, he was a Communist from France. He didn’t even have a French accent. And I saw him limping up the stairs and then he lights up his pipe outside and he’s giving my dad orders what to do next.
And so my dad takes me on his rounds. And then I meet some people. He takes me around and stuff. And that stuff started happening when Allen Dulles, I think the reason why he wanted my dad to burn records was. I asked my dad before he died, I said, “real Communists wouldn’t want you to burn there membership. They’d be proud to have membership records. And my dad said, You’re very perceptive. So I think what it was, Allen Dulles he himself later was being accused as a Communist. But he wanted to get rid of all the agents who were infiltrating under their name because they had completely infiltrated the Communist Party. They knew everything my dad was doing. They knew everything Gus Hall was doing or where he was. Our house was bugged. Our telephone was tapped. They knew everything that was going on.
So I was having trouble with all this stuff. Gus Hall was hiding in my bedroom upstairs. They put me upstairs in the attic. And there was some friend of his, some creepy guy, they were talking about the revolution and everything and Gus Hall was saying, well there’s not going to be any revolution until things really, really get bad. And this guy with him, I think he was a spy and he was a Jewish guy, too. Gus Hall was Jewish too. So, I was saying, listen, I’m related to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, all these kings of England. So I was like saying, what is all this about, a revolution. I knew that they were talking about something secret and something was really weird. So this guy that was with Gus got real mad at me for saying that and Gus kind of told him to be quiet and lay off me and things like that.
Jeff: And how old were you when all this was going on?
Jim: Oh, about five years old. I’m on my fifth birthday, my hero was Roy Rogers and Superman. My fifth birthday and I’m with my dad and Dad says, “So what do you want for your birthday?” I said, well I want some Roy Rogers cap guns set, to shoot two guns. What do you want that for? And I said, I want those as he’s my hero. And then I asked my dad, who’s your hero? And he said, oh my hero is Abraham Lincoln and Joseph Stalin. I heard about Joseph Stalin then, I guess. Really weird stuff. And then the reason why I wanted to talk about Roy Rogers is so weird. I was there once and all these men came over to the house… I know I was about five years old.
And the maid was there, we had a maid. And she goes, Jim, go outside, men are coming, go outside and hide. So I go outside and I hide under the porch and I see these men are coming there and they were looking around for me, too. I guess they knew what was going on and they got me from under the porch. And they’re going kind of rough on me up, where’s the key, Jim? Where’s the key? I don’t know what they were talking about, the key to what? But I guess the maid had locked the door and I figured out so…
And so this guy said where’s the key? And then saw another guy that was there. I think he was a friend of my uncle’s or something. And then he said, Jim, tell him you’re buried it. And I said, oh, I buried it. There was a pile of dirt where we were digging for China when were kids, and so they look into the pile of dirt. It’s really kind of weird, and then I guess, they got in the house because then one of the guys said to me, don’t tell your folks about this because these people will stop at nothing.
And I’m looking around that there’s some more guys coming down the street with these kinds of English hats, these bowler hats that they wear, and with the umbrellas. And so I just took off and I wanted to go get help from my dad. So I go down to the railroad tracks. I follow railroad tracks because he worked at the Railway Express Agency. So I’m walking down the tracks, I see there’s a dead dog there. And then all of a sudden it’s a neighbor, I guess found me because people were looking for me. He found me and brought me back home. So he brings me back home and the ceiling collapsed. It was summer day. The whole ceiling fell into like two rooms to the house. And that was the day the ceiling fell in. And I’m trying to tell my story. Nobody believed me. The maid was scared, so she wasn’t going to back me up.
So I guess what happened was they were looking for probably those records that my dad burned and they were going through the attic and probably the guys couldn’t see because there wasn’t really a floor there in the path they were looking at. So that was the day the ceiling fell. And my sister still remembers that. It was so crazy, crazy stuff.
Jeff: Well, who do you think those guys were?
Jim: They were agents of some kind. Who knows, they could have been the FBI, they could have been British agents, whatever, because of the whole Communist Party was infiltrated by everybody. It was just everybody that was in the Cold War was into that, it’s forty-seven. The new Cold War is really getting hot. And so that’s the kind of stuff I grew up with
Jeff: Well who was Jack Le Blanc?
Jim: Oh. Jack Le Blanc. That was Allen Dulles, that was his cover name. Of course he is not going to say my name is Allen Dulles.
Jeff: That was his alias.
Jim: Oh, absolutely. My dad knew he was a spy. My sister said my dad knew Jack Le blank was a spy, but he never told me that until just before he died. I finally got it all straight with them. Jack Le Blanc was the man that’s Allen Dulles, the guy with the clubfoot and everything. And my dad finally started believing me about all this stuff very late. And he says, well, Jim, you’re right. But I used to say that you’re more for the Russians than the Russians are, And he would think, “well I guess I realized it now they were very, very corrupt. I didn’t realize that before”, and so he was always…
But before he died, he said there’s only two communists left in the world, Jim, me and Fidel Castro. So he was true to his things. It’s funny he didn’t want anybody to know he was a Communist. And they knew that. So that’s why they could kind of do what they wanted with me. They felt like they owned me and my dad wouldn’t stand up for me. My parents were afraid. They’re afraid they’d be exposed and what they were doing.
Jeff: Blackmail, extortion, bribery and assassination.
Jim: Kids are being used in this kind of shit. We are victims and everybody is a victim of the war but kids, that was like, I was being told in the school, the communists in Russia, they want you to spy on their parents. They are telling me that when George Bush came to town and this was in the early 50s and he wanted me to spy on my folks and he was a lot of times even George W was with them. Little George W was too small to play football. So it starts out friendly stuff. My friend Johnny said, oh, this guy wants us, he likes us because he was watching us play football. We were playing tackle football in the park.
Jeff: Back in the good old days. I did too.
Jim: Yeah. We were playing really kind of rough. I had a helmet, shoulder pads. And so my friend says he really likes us and wants us to be in an Alan Ladd movie. And I go, wow. So he said, yeah, come over. And so he set an appointment with me. And I go over to his house there. And my friend Johnny’s house and his mom’s in the kitchen there and she goes, he’s in the living room and he wants to talk to you. So I’m thinking, what’s this about a movie deal? So I go in there and the room’s kind of dark. And he, George Bush comes out dressed like Roy Rogers, and starts talking to me about the good guys wore the white hats and the bad guys wore the black hats. And he goes he starts talking about the spy. Forgot the guys, I always have a block about this guy’s analogy.
Jeff: Alger Hiss.
Jim: Yeah, Alger Hiss. And he starts talking about him… and he says, “I know a neighbor called the police.” he might know there was this mystery where my grandfather died when I was over at my grandparents house, my grandpa Cohen. Guys brought him in on a stretcher, I was sleeping on the porch and they told me, go in your grandmother’s room, Jim. They laid him out on the porch cot and then I go in there. And then I hear yelling out on the porch with my grandpa. Maybe he’s having a heart attack. I don’t know.
But my grandmother goes out there and then she comes back, she’s crying and she’s looking to the drawer maybe for pills or whatever. That night, then I heard somebody jump off the porch and run back into the garage. And I called this guy Garage Man. I think he was the guy that was up with Gus Hall upstairs getting mad at me for that. And so he used to hang out in the garage and my grandpa kicked him down the stairs once too. And he pulled a knife on my grandpa and I picked up the brick. And the guy just walked away.
So George Bush is telling me that we know my grandma was scared to talk about this. I was the only one who was there when grandpa died. My grandma was there, but nobody else was. There were all these stories about how he died but nobody really knew. Somebody said he died on a streetcar, and all these different stories. So the police came over after I went home after he died, I was at home. Then the cops came over and my uncle Saul came over and he was crying. So the police wanted to know what happened and nobody knew what happened, but nobody would talk to me. And so I was just watching this and I was the only one that knew what was happening. So this was like when I was like five years old.
But then when I’m 10, five years later, Bush wants me to spy. So he’s saying to me at Johnny’s house, well Jim, we know the neighbors heard somebody and called the police. Heard somebody jumped down off the porch. Would have urged them to call the police. So he knew what I was talking about as they had our place bugged. So he knew what was going on and my grandma was scared and everything. And so I said, what’s this stuff about being in the movie? So there was nothing about that. This was all like a bait and switch to get me to think I was going to help solve my grandfather’s death.
Jeff: Why was this Johnny’s house in Ohio?
Jim: Yes. In Willowick Ohio, which is a suburb of Cleveland.
Jeff: So, George Herbert Walker Bush was there fighting communism. And that would have been in 1952.
Jim: 1951 or 1952. And so I went over once and I went home crying when he wanted me to do this. My folks were somewhere I didn’t know where they were, Haiti or they went on some vacation. So my grandma was there. I told my grandma what happened. She said the bastards, they started again. And I guess they started, I asked her many years later, when did they start. She said when Roosevelt died. So then I tried to tell my folks what was going on. They didn’t believe me. They didn’t want to do anything. They were scared. Everything I did all my life, I scared people. That was like my mission.
I guess it still is because I talk about the Kennedy assassination. So I just scare people because they can’t prove me wrong and nobody wants to get involved ever. Not even today. So after all these years, people are afraid of it. So my dad didn’t want to… So Johnny came over once on his bicycle. And he goes, oh, that guy, he’s beat me with a strap. He’s crying and he goes, can your parents help me, can your folks help me. He was a kid. He told me I can’t play with you anymore because your grandma is a bad person.
Jeff: Who is whipping him?
Jim: George Bush beating him with a strap. Maybe worse but that’s what I remember him crying about. And so I told my dad. He didn’t know nothing and he didn’t want to do a thing. It’s all about helping Johnny out. And so I remember and I went over and asked Johnny’s mom. She was a real nice lady and used to make us hamburgers after school and everything. So why does he want me to spy? And she said, well, he was new in the oil business, his dad a senator.
He thinks this is going to help him become president someday. This is in 1951-52 because that’s when we went out west. We’re driving all the way out to San Francisco. My folks were going out to visit a friend. My mom knew out there. And so we’re driving out West and I kept telling my dad to do something about this guy. I was really upset that he wanted me to spy. Despite everything, my parents told me, be quiet. My mom saying you need some discipline.
So we stop at this big kind of Western place truck stop, corrals around it and mountains and everything. It was in Wyoming. My sister remembers it was in Wyoming. And so I was right after, I’m to be disciplined. Then I go up by the corral, look out there and guess who walks up.
Jeff: George Bush
Jim: Yeah. Out there in Wyoming. He was following us. He probably had our car bugged. And so he looked concerned and said, Jim, are you all right? And I’m thinking this is weird
Jeff: And he became director of the CIA.
Jim: Well, and also president. And I was really mad. I was going to my teachers and there was this one guy who was my counsellor there and he knew my dad and he was going well. I said, What’s going on, why are they doing this? He said, Well, because your parents are stooges for the Communist Party, so then at least I knew what was going on. But the FBI came over once because I complained at school and my teachers were concerned. And my dad wouldn’t talk to the FBI, “go away, I’m not talking to you”. And so what happened was my dad thought I was trying to turn Bush in. I felt like this guy’s really doing something like that to me what the Communists are doing over in Russia, spying on your parents. So my dad was helping out George Bush in his political career, actually.
Jeff: Go back to Wyoming. What happened when you were at corral with Bush?
Jim: He said he just wants to know if I was OK. So I don’t know what to say to him… because I’m thinking holy shit, My folks are in on this. So I don’t know what to do. I’m a kid. I was very confused. I was upset. So it kind of shut me up. I didn’t know because it was like a wakeup call. That’s why my folks aren’t going to do anything. There’s a lot of stuff like that going on.
So the FBI knew that I knew Bush. My grandfather knew who Bush was, when I would go to Westerville and complain to them and everything my parents would leave… Get me out of the house because I was getting crazy about this. I was banging my head against the couch. I was doing crazy things. He was making me nuts.
Jeff: Where’s Westerville?
Jim: Westerville is outside of Columbus. That’s where they had the first Democratic debate there just about a year ago or so. The debate among the Democrats, My grandfather was a professor there at Otterbein University, a small college in Westerville, Ohio. So I’m asking him about who this guy was and he knew who he was because he knew who the Bushes were, because they were in Columbus and they were kind of a big deal there. And my grandfather told me stories about how Prescott Bush, when he came back from the First World War and claimed that he stuck his Bowie knife up and blocked a mortar shell. And then he made up the story.
And his mother said, yes that’s, crazy.
So this was all in the papers about how Prescott Bush was trying to make himself out to be a hero after the First World War and so I find out more. So I also found out that my dad wouldn’t tell me this, but my uncle, his brother did tell me that my dad’s first job when my dad took his first job out of high school in that big country club, he was a lifeguard. I found out that the country club was the one that was owned by Prescott and Sam Bush. Sam Bush was George Bush’s grandfather. But Sam was the starter of that big country club there in Columbus called Scioto.
Jeff: So the Bushes got started in Ohio. I thought they always claim they’re from Connecticut and Texas.
Jim: Well that was the thing. Prescott was from Columbus. Prescott is George’s father. And he had something to do with a country club too, I’m sure. And he knew my dad and probably my mom too. Because when I thought of Prescott when we were doing an audition, Jim and Jean at Columbia Records. My mom was at the studio, which was
Strange how she come in and she wanted to see our audition at Columbia Records. And in walks this tall guy, and he’s real mad and so upset about something at the engineer. And when I saw pictures of Prescott Bush later. So I think they knew. And so we didn’t pass that audition until we got a record deal that was with Phillips. So that was the first record. What a crazy world!
Jeff: So did you know George W. Bush when you were growing up or did you ever meet?
Jim: Well, I never really talked to him. He was so young. Whenever I played football he was about five or six and I was about nine or ten. He was about four years younger than me. So George wouldn’t let him play with us because he was too small. And so one time we were out, I think this was the last time I saw him even after the incident in Wyoming. He wanted some neighborhood kids to play football again with them, go on out. And so we’re playing then, George is there with W. Bush trying to tackle his dad grabbing onto his legs. And George has this thing to stick out his tongue. I saw him (photo) fishing and he had his tongue out like kind of half biting his tongue and just kind of a thing he had.
And so he was doing this while Little George W was trying to tackle him and we were laughing at that. And so I don’t know if he got upset that we were laughing at him, but then he said, OK, we’re going to make a game now. He said the next guy carries the ball, has to stick his tongue out like he does. So guess who is the next ball carrier? Me. So I’m ready. I get the ball and run it right into the line. I know Dave. He knew George and he was later trying to protect him. (from my questions) He comes up with his helmet, hits me right in the jaw and chin. My mouth was bleeding huge blood. And I’m going, oh, no. So I get on my bike and I’m riding home. I go home and I’ll bet W Bush remember this. I still have a scar on my tongue that put a couple stitches. My dad took me to the clinic and stuff like that.
So I don’t know if he did it on purpose to try to tell me to shut up and whatever, but it turned out real bad for me. But it was a scar that somehow I’ll never forget. It’s crazy stuff like the scar I got a bump on my back when this lady pushed me out of the window. And I think I know who the lady was. This was after the guys came over when I was about five and this was right after when they told me, Jim, when those guys came over were telling me not to talk to my parents. He said, this one guy, felt sorry for me as well said, “Jim just pretend you’re like your heroes”.
Jeff: Roy Rogers, right.
Jim: Roy Rogers and Superman, yeah. So I’m upstairs and I’m in the bathroom. And I would try to make Superman clothes cause I’ve got the towel wrapped around my neck. And this lady comes into the bathroom. She goes, I thought we told you to shut up. Because I was telling my grandfather about this stuff before my grandfather died. And he was really upset. He was saying, (well, I thought he was saying it’s the black hats). But my uncle told me, Jim, he was talking about the Black Hand. And there is an old Jewish mafia group called Black Hand. So it was crazy stuff.
Jeff: So she told you to shut up and then what does she do?
Jim: She put me up on the windowsill and it was a high window. It wasn’t on the second story, thank God. She put me up there and well I said, they told me I could be like Superman. They tell me to shut up, but I’m saying, they told me I could be like Superman. She goes, OK, let’s see you fly! She pushes me out the window. I remember seeing the window go up and I land on my back and my knees hit on my chest and I’m laying there. And this old guy comes up and he looks down on me. He’s got an accent like my grandmothers’ saying, ‘Jim, it’s terrible, your mother pushed you out of your own window, your own mother’. He’s just like putting shit in my head, screwed me up.
Jeff: Well, who do you think she was?
Jim: Well, I found out who she was. She was Jeanne de Mohrenschildt, but she was Jeanne LeGon at the time. And she was pretending to be a communist.
Jeff: Well, she was an agent. She was an infiltrator.
Jim: She was an agent. And I found out who it was because I used to tell the story about the woman who pushed me out the window. And so after the Kennedy assassination, by the way, they set me up to see George on that too. And I’m the only one who knows where Hoover was the day they shot JFK. And I could tell my stories in Chicago about JFK and everything. And I’m telling the story where I was recording. This friend of mine, and of the engineer, she knew, obviously, who Giancana was. And this was before they killed Giancana. And she says, Jim, I got a message from Momo.
And I don’t know what she was talking about, but there was a nickname for Sam Giancana was Mo Mo and Mooney, Mo, Giancana. And she says, the message is the lady that pushed you out the window was Jeanne de Mohrenschildt. I remember the name de Mohrenschildt for a little bit from the Kennedy assassination. I remember my mom talking about who she was really when she was reading about the Kennedy assassination… That’s really interesting. And so, anyway, I’m wondering how is that. All I remember is that the lady was dark hair or she wasn’t tall, like my mom, and she was wearing riding pants, riding pants that would stick out at the side where you put the hand in your pocket.
Jeff: Yeah. Well, I think they call it Jodhpurs or something like that.
Jim: Yeah, I guess so. Years later I’m up in Topanga Canyon. It was called the Old Topanga Canyon Road.
Jeff: Oh, Topanga in Laurel Valley.
Jim: Right. That’s where we lived, up the street there. And somebody told me, maybe was a dealer or something, I forgot. Who told me that this girl wants to meet you tomorrow. Her name’s de Mohrenschildt. So I go to this house in Topanga Canyon. And this girl there, she’s dressed like in this Gothic baroque kind of style and she had red hair. And so I took her out. She starts talking about her dad a little bit. And I’m talking about the Kennedy assassination because I figured he had something to do with that. She didn’t see me anymore. But I remember, she told me your name was Chris, but she made a point of saying it’s with a K. Chris with a K. And I found out later that she’s the daughter of Jeanne LeGon. So in other words, George was her stepfather. And so she probably got some information off me and she didn’t tell me much, but she wanted to know what was going on about her mom and everything. Her mom and George they knew that. So I don’t really hold anything against her mom she was just doing her job as a spy.
But they knew that Oswald was being set up. And they helped set them up. And they didn’t believe that Oswald shot Kennedy. And I don’t think he did it. I think he was a patsy and you don’t become a patsy overnight. Anyway, I’ve researched this thing backwards and forwards. And I think Oswald was up there with other man. And he didn’t bring a rifle to work that day because this guy who drove them to work, Buell Wesley Frazier, maintains to this day that there was no rifle in that little small package broken down or whatever.
Jeff: Who Frazier?
Jim: Buell Wesley Frazier. Wesley is his first name. He was the guy to drive Oswald to work and helped him get a job at the Book Depository through Ruth Paine. And they wouldn’t trust him to bring the rifle because he was a patsy. So he didn’t bring it.
Jeff: And I’ll splice this all together.
Jim: You don’t become a patsy overnight. When I was on the Hollywood Hootenanny Tour, they knew that I knew about the plot because Phil Ochs told me about it months before it happened. And so I was interested in it. They wanted me to go on this tour. And Phil told me not to go. And I said, well, I heard that President Kennedy is going to be killed in the South. And Phil was suspicious of this tour. And they go, Yeah that’s why I want you to go, Jim. So Phil was working for National Security and when he came over, he told me about the plot. He said he was working with a special group, it’s kind of like the CIA, National Security adviser. Bush used to say National Security, too, who he is working for.
That’s kind of like a generic term, probably a lot of agencies all mixed in. And there you got your special deal. Phil Ochs said Hoover is the bad guy. And there’s this war going on with the military or whatever it was. It was actually there was a big divide even within the CIA. I read just before Kennedy died. They tried to portray everybody was against Kennedy, but he gets friends in the CIA too. So maybe that’s why they wanted me besides being a patsy because of my dad.
Jeff: Yeah. Well, they made sure to show that Oswald was a communist, too, he went to Cuba and all that crap.
Jim: Yeah. I’m not even sure he was a real communist. I think he could have been just acting the part. And that’s what I believe now from Judyth Baker’s story. And because she’s written many books on it and a lot of people don’t believe her. But I have found she exaggerates and she has wishful thinking about it because Oswald was her lover of New Orleans and everything, and they were working on a project to kill Castro, that’s the story. And I haven’t found anybody to disprove it yet that Oswald and Judith Baker and David Ferrie in this with Dr. Ochsner and what’s her name?
The Lady, Mary Sherman, I think her name was. They were working on a biological cancer thing to kill Castro. So she worked with this cancer even right out of high school. She was like a genius. She was a researcher. And they were using animals and killing mice every day and giving them tumors and they would collect these tumors and blah, blah, blah. And so I was always supposed to go down. And that’s why he (Oswald) supposedly went down to Mexico to try to give this bioweapon to the contact down there. But that never panned through. Never happened.
So they cut the whole thing, could have been set up as a test just to get them involved in the crazy thing. So Judith says that they actually had to test this bioweapon on two black prisoners. So they tested it and they went to the hospital and she said the guy was really sick and she was certain that he was going to die. And she was all proud of the fact that she made it so that they would have to give x rays to make the cancer thing even more stronger. And so they were telling her we’ve got to save us from nuclear war, because if you don’t kill Castro, we’ll have to kill Kennedy. Crazy Stuff. And she was She believes it and went along with it.
Jeff: Where were actually she where were these black prisoners in the U.S.?
Jim: Yeah, they were. And they went to this hospital, I think it was around Clinton. Theywent up to Clinton, Louisiana. That area wasn’t far from New Orleans. And so the prisoners died. So, I’m thinking, gee, this is a murder plot. So actually they’re involved in murder. Now they really got something on Oswald. The CIA they’re involved, they’re not going to admit to anything like this, are you kidding?
So the story is that (Oswald) he tells her at the Katzenjammer, a club there, he is telling his girlfriend, Judith Baker, “well, they’re telling me now they’re going to kill me because of the cancer project”. And so that’s what he was really scared about, that they were involved in this murder project because he’s not stupid. So they had this over him. So that’s where I think they really had him. So he had to go along with being a patsy. So on the bus they were watching me every minute, they’re making sure all my mail had to go through the managers of the tour. They even had Jean, my wife, she was talking me into it. So I found out after they killed Kennedy on my way back,
I thought I was going to be killed at night at a very isolated motel in the Sam Houston National Forest, where they killed the guy who was another Oswald lookalike. They had him in the bus. And this was after Bush and Hoover and a bunch of other people got off the bus. We picked them up, they hijacked this bus, Hollywood Hootenanny tour bus. And this was right after they told me Kennedy was dead. And these agents were looking at me for my reaction. And then they wouldn’t let me get back on the bus with the musicians. And this guy had my hands behind hammer lock. And said, Jim, be quiet. These teenagers surrounded me, wouldn’t let me get back on the bus. So I’m yelling at the bus, remember this! when it left and then this other bus comes.
And so I’m thinking, what, do I run, where do I go? They know who I am, I don’t know who the hell they are. But I felt like, oh shit, they’re going to kill me tonight. So I get back on that bus. This is right after I learned. Kennedy was dead. This is around Houston, and so that bus goes and then the regular driver, they got rid of him. They kicked him off the bus. It was a uniform driver. And these guys, they looked like Latino soldiers, I don’t know whether or what country they’re from or anything like that.
Jeff: Probably Cuban fascists from Miami.
Jim: Yeah or whatever. And so then they’re driving for a while. I’d look forward to seeing the big wide open space like a big concrete ground when we’re driving and there was nothing. Well it turns out it was an airstrip and it was probably at the Houston airport where they were headed, what they call ‘through the fence airport’, so that where you could drive from the public into the private. And the guy saying, OK, everybody pull down your blinds, pull down your blinds so nobody can see inside the bus. And everybody was just following orders. Followers. Somebody in the back said, “We are at an airport” That’s right, an airport. And all these guys got on.
And so this guy was a David Ferrie look alike. I was supposed to know who David Ferrie was because back in Cleveland, the real David Ferrie wanted to talk to me. And my friend, who would always tell me when the FBI was asking about me, I had some friends who would tell me the FBI was asking about me. So I heard that this guy wanted to talk to me. And so I go in the school yard and he’s barking orders at these kids, probably Civil Air Patrol. And so I say, what’s all this about. And then somebody says, Watch out, Jim. So, I was warned. So I didn’t talk to this guy. Why would I want to talk to this guy, I knew something was crazy because my whole life had been crazy at that point. I didn’t know who the fuck was that guy, nobody knew.
So it was years later after the Kennedy assassination, I was going for my last physical. The Draft wanted me to go to take another physical to get drafted. On my first I was telling the guy, ‘I know who killed Kennedy, you guys did. Give me a rifle and will shoot’. That was psychotic. Then I went for about three or four physicals. And each time they would put me down “1Y” because I was taking drugs and everything, because I was trying to fail because I didn’t want to go to Nam. So anyway, I stopped and saw my friend who was always telling me, Well, Jim, the FBI say they don’t know what to do with you. And I said, Why? And he said, because too many people. And this was back when I was in high school.
So this is about many years later. So he says you know that guy that wanted to talk to you in the parking lot in the school yard. I said, ‘Yeah’. He said the FBI told me that guy was David Ferrie. So I’m supposed to know David Ferrie and I found out from the FBI who he was. So anyway, now it’s the afternoon of the Kennedy assassination. Late afternoon, we are at the airport and in Houston. And these guys get on the bus and I hear all this rumbling around with the luggage compartment underneath the bus and the first guy I see says to me, ‘how is the trip, Jim’. And he’s got this wig that didn’t fit, like a reddish wig. And he looked like he was bald under the wig. And he’s got these eyebrows that are fake and they were like mohair eyebrows, kind of just pasted on, not painted. But actually, he looked like a sad clown, some crazy.
And he goes, ‘how was the trip?’ And on the bus, the other people are getting on. And he turns around, he says, ‘Do you know that guy getting on the bus now?’ and he’s pointing to Guy just getting on. And I didn’t knew but I find out later, he’s pointing to George Bush. And then another thing he asked me is, ‘why was British intelligence asking about you?’ I didn’t say a word to this guy. The smartest thing I did that day was the only day in my life where I kept my mouth shut. And that’s why I got out of there alive.
Jeff: What happened after everybody got on the bus in the private Houston Airport?
Jim: The blond lady up there was Barbara because Bush called the FBI that day from Tyler Texas, was giving a speech. So he tipped off the FBI, Hoover was in Texas. So he was really a guy that knows where Hoover was. And so Bush is sitting right next to Hoover. And the blond lady was on my left when I got back on the bus. And I’m wondering, who is she?
She was dressed really nice. But that was Barbara. She had her hair dyed like Marilyn Monroe style platinum blond that day. And I’ve got a picture of her. The Bush family says, oh, she never dyed her hair. I’ve got a picture of her as a platinum blond in 64 with her daughter, Dorothy next to her. Her daughter was about four or five years old.
I finally found who she was because I was always looking for pictures of Barbara Bush. So I figured that was Barbara with George because I read the whole story about his speech. And she wrote a whole story about where they were that day. And I could never find a picture, all the old pictures of Barbara’s brown hair. And then also I followed on this Web site that does have pictures. Wow, there it is. And I showed it to my girlfriend and she goes, ‘yeah, she’s got dark roots’. Well, sure, she had dark roots because this was about four months after the Assassination when she took that picture, when George was running for the Senate in 1964. Then she changed her hair color back. She’s probably wondering why the hell she was doing on that bus. But she didn’t say anything about the bus in her story through. Smart to do that.
So the bus picked him up, and also got on these Dallas cops. This was Houston. Dallas cops in uniform have the Oswald look alike. No, there were several Oswald lookalikes. This guy had tears in his eyes. They set him down right across the aisle from me. They had a cowboy hat. One of those a cop, Texas police, used to wear these cowboy hats, Stetson hats. And they had pulled down over his head real tight, kind of to hide his appearance. And later on, they took I remember, the cop took his hat back and I see he had a real short military style crew cut. And then there were other people on the bus. And so anyway, the bus started going around in circles and in past the same place twice.
And my buddy there, Tumbleweed Tom, he was sitting next to me for a while and we passed this place before. So I think from George Bush’s it was only about 20 minutes away from the airport, his house. And so they dropped him off. I think probably Hoover got off there at the same time because Hoover and Bush were talking. And so that night, somebody came into my room.
They had my wife, Jean, staying at a motel across from this National Guard Armory on the other side of it. And our motel was very isolated. When I first went in there, these guys were all celebrating at the bar. And I go, wow, I better call my dad now. And I called my dad and he goes, Where are you? And I go, I’m in… I said, You hear about the assassination? He says, Where are you? And I go, I don’t know. So I turned around, these guys are celebrating at the bar and at these tables and I asked, So where are we? And they say, Dallas, you’re in Dallas. So I tell my dad ‘I’m in Dallas’.
And he always remembers that, me calling from Dallas. And so I look out there, outside and it’s totally black. You don’t see a light anywhere. It’s a totally isolated place out in the woods. And they just wanted me to tell everybody I was in Dallas. Pretty clever. I’m not going to let it go. I just wanted to live life through this thing. So that night a guy comes into my room, one of the managers, he said, Jim, don’t go outside. ‘There was a guy with a shotgun who’s looking for the guy who shot President Kennedy. So I’d better stay inside because they told me that when I left on this tour it’s dangerous. Don’t write anything down and don’t interfere’. Remember the three things they tell, Don’t interfere, don’t write it down. That’s it. I didn’t interfere and that’s all I’m telling you, the story.
Otherwise, I’d been dead a long time ago. So anyway, they’re celebrating all night long. Hooping’ and Hollering’ and like they’re having a big hunt out there for this guy. And then I hear shotgun blasts. And then it got real quiet that night. There was nothing in my room. No TV, No radio. I didn’t know what was going on. I didn’t know who the hell Oswald was. I don’t know anything about that. And so the next day, I woke up and there was this guy dressed like I was supposed to think he’s David Ferrie because he was disguised with that fake wig and fake eyebrows, that could only be David Ferrie.
So after for a long, many, many years. I said, well, that was David Ferrie in all my stories. But then when I start talking to Judith Baker and people that knew David Ferrie they said No. This guy was big he wasn’t a little guy like you think, he didn’t look sickly. He looked like of commanding appearance about him personality. And he was a hefty guy. And he had freckles up in the back of his neck and all over his face. That reminded me of Fred Neil, the singer friend of mine whose famous for his freckles.
And so I go, I ask everybody who knew Dave Ferrie if he could have freckles, No! So then I knew he was an impostor because David Ferrie, he was the first guy they talked about after the Kennedy assassination. He was mentioned as being a suspect. So it was all set up. And they were trying to make me crazy because I would say David Ferrie was on the bus, which he wasn’t, because he was in fact, on the day of the assassination, he was in New Orleans at the trial of Carlos Marcello, who he was working for. And Carlos Marcello was being prosecuted by RFK and he got away with it. They were trying to deport him again. And he was OK. So then Ferrie did take off for around the Houston area that night, but he drove all night, and ended up making calls from a roller skating rink. So that was it.
The David Ferrie look alike was the guy who was trying to throw me off and wanted to know if I knew George Bush and wanted to know why British intelligence was asking questions about me. So the next day David Ferrie look alike, was loading and trying to arrange all the luggage in the bus for the trip home. They told me all the trips are over. Now the Hootenanny tour is over. And Jean, my wife came and talked to me right beside where the National Guard armory was. And she says, yeah, I heard shots. And I said, isn’t it weird. She says it’s weird. I said, Yeah, it’s weird. The phone’s prefix, I noticed, was Garfield, the assassinated president. So we both remembered that. So we know what the prefix was on the place and on the pay phone with which I called my dad and she knows that too. And well, on the way back, I’m going, ‘What are they going to do, to kill? Well, they haven’t killed me yet’. And Jean was not on that same bus I was on. They put me on with other people and just two agents were sitting in front of me, talking on the radios. And I am thinking these guys will kill me.
So I got the courage to ask, I said, ‘Well, who shot President Kennedy?’ He turned around and guy is real nice like he knew that I was there for a reason or someone. He says, well, we’re talking to Hoover, and he points up right up where Hoover was sitting the day before. He says, ‘Hoover said that it was a test that went bad and it wasn’t the Cubans’. He mentioned the test went bad and said other things. But that’s what I remember because I was expecting Cubans. Of course, everybody was. And I said, what are you, FBI? And he goes, No, I’m with NASA. A NASA agent. That’s what he said. Now, the other guy I don’t know, might have been a DEA agent.
The next day, Hoover had a memo that came out just before the Bush elections in 1988, the memo said that Hoover saying what the State Department thinks the day after the Kennedy assassination. That’s probably what he was talking to Bush about on the bus, because Bush was his code name was White Rose. And he was involved in that Bay of Pigs thing. And so he says, ‘The State Department says that they think that the Kennedy assassination was a pretext so that there would be a new invasion of Cuba’. Which was pretty smart on the State Department’s part.
So Hoover had to, like, nixed that immediately. So he calls his friend and in his informant in Miami who says we have a reliable informant cause he wouldn’t give his name, but probably it’s known, says that all the Miami Cubans love Kennedy. They were like very happy with what he was doing, which is bullshit. And so in other words, that whole thing about the State Department, they’re looking into this. Hoover had nixed that out real fast. So that was what the memo was. He says in the memo this information was orally transferred. This is the day after the assassination, this memo was orally transmitted to Captain Edwards of the DEA, and the other agent could have been him that was sitting in front of me and George Bush of the CIA.
That’s in the Hoover memo now. So you see that he’s trying to get his ducks all in a line now. If you read the testimony Hoover gives to the Warren Commission, it’s unbelievable. He doesn’t say anything about what he was doing there because he was in Texas, you can’t say anything about what he was doing that day. So as far as he’s concerned, nothing happened at all until President LBJ called him that night. And then they have to have a strategy that night.
Hoover saying, “Well, we got the guy, it is Oswald. LBJ: Well, what about this Russia thing and all that?, We don’t know that at all, Don’t you think he was down?.. We don’t think he was in Mexico”. They’re talking about all that and everything. And so Hoover confessed and this is all recorded. And Hoover says, well I don’t have any jurisdiction in this case. Can you believe that there’s no Federal law against assassinating a president?. So he has no jurisdiction. What the fuck was he doing in Texas? But anyway, that’s my idea. So he says I have no jurisdiction. So right away, LBJ says, ‘well, that’s why you’re in charge of this case’. Put him in charge over the phone. So now Hoover is in charge of the whole thing. That’s how they settled it and that’s the truth. And nobody’s been able to prove any of my story so far.
Jeff,: Well it is very interesting you brought that up because I can send you the recording that Kevin Barrett on Truth Jihad radio, he let me keep a copy of it. I was actually online on Kevin’s show. And so they always get you on about 10 minutes early.
Jim: Kevin Costner?
Jeff: No, Kevin Barrett, the guy has Truth Jihad radio. And he’s a really interesting journalist and podcaster. And anyway, I was on the show. They always get you on about 10 or 15 minutes early so that you can do a sound test and all that. And who was on before me was William Pepper. And William Pepper, of course was the lawyer, I’m not sure he probably still is for Martin Luther King Junior.
Jim: I think he died.
Jeff: I don’t know, I think he’s still around. Maybe not. But anyway, I think he’s still around. He’s not young, but I think I’ll have to have to verify. Anyway, he was on the show about his new book, ‘The Plot to Kill King’, and of course King Pepper convened, Grant convened, and an all-white grand jury in Memphis and did years of research. And after a month of testimony in this grand jury, the all-white jury, just because they wanted to make sure people were not biased, the all-white jury only took 90 minutes to convict the United States government of being involved in Martin Luther King’s murder.
Anyway, I’ve got the book, I’m going to read it this summer. I’ve just got about a thousand books to read, but it’s all my list. I actually have it in my bookshelf, But anyway at the end of this interview and I’ll send it to you. Anyway, I’ll skip the Martin Luther King part. And he is now representing Sirhan Sirhan for the R.F.K murder because he was obviously a patsy. James Earl Ray was a patsy. In fact, they had him already sequestered a one week before Martin Luther King was shot and to set him up. And Sirhan Sirhan was, of course, another patsy. And at the end of that interview, he talks about how he has signed affidavits of, I think it was at what’s that place called in Washington where the vice president works next to the White House. I can’t remember the name of it, the something house where the vice president is next to the White House.
Anyway, LBJ was there and Hoover was there and I think the somebody from the Joint Chiefs of Staff was there, and somebody representing David Rockefeller, he was from Chase Manhattan Bank was there and he has a signed affidavit that when they had the meeting that night, it was to decide to kill Kennedy and LBJ came out and was bragging that, well, that son of a bitch is not going to be telling me what to do anymore. And I can’t remember the name, it was actually Murchison’s house.
Jim: Clint Murchison in Dallas where that meeting took place. So Hoover was there that night, the night before the assassination, and LBJ talked to him and there were witnesses to that.
Jeff: I think it corroborates your story. As Ed Curtain has written several times, it’s not even debatable. You can’t even question whether Kennedy was killed by the CIA and the Mafia and the Cuban fascists, it’s so obvious. And what’s really interesting, Jim, But I’ve actually written about this after the Warren Commission came out, which was actually, I think, manipulated by Allen Dulles. Gallup polling since 1963, every two or three years does a national poll.
And after the Warren Commission report came out, at least 53 percent of the people in the United States up to today, believe that Kennedy was killed by the government, with the government being involved and has gotten as high as 80. And it drops down. But it’s always high. Recently it’s in the 60s and 70s, so Americans know that JFK was killed by his own government. It’s not even debatable.
They know it, but they internalize it.
Jim: They are scared of it, because they don’t know what to do about it. Nobody wants to get involved because nobody has all the answers.
Jeff: What can we do? I mean they blew his brains out on Dealey Plaza.
Jim: All I can do is tell my story. But, I’m chasing the wind.
Jeff: But this is really interesting because it corroborates a lot of other stuff. And before we get off, I may split this interview into two parts, sort of the political part, and then I’d love to talk about your music, too. But tell us where Phil Ochs fits into all this because Ed Curtin wrote an article about the pictures of Phil Ochs in the theatre.
Jim: I found those. Yeah, those are all my pictures.
Jeff: And can you tell us where Phil Ochs fits into all this.?
Jim: Well, beginning like when I went to Ohio State, I was supposed to have a roommate who was a friend of mine. So the son of a friend of my parents. So when I went to the rooming house there where we’re supposed to be at. He said, You have some mix up, I’m not supposed to have a roommate. So I was like, what another mix up? So then I had a shoe salesman as a roommate. And then this guy comes down one day and he comes into my room, he says, ‘Jim, you got to help me out. This guy is driving me nuts, playing music upstairs and I just want you to go up and just see him, I think he’s into music’.
And so I just walked by his room and he goes, hello, So who are you? And I said, I’m Jim. Then I introduced myself. And so what do you do? I said, well, I play folk music. He goes, ‘Oh, you do’. So then he wanted to be my new roommate right away. But he said, well, here’s the deal, there’s gonna a new rooming student dormitory going up called Steeb Hall. He said he has connections that will get us in there right away, so that’s what he did. And we went into this new Steeb Hall. And then ROTC was mandatory. So I was cadet in army. He was a sergeant in Air Force field.
Jim: What state university your college was?
Jim: Ohio State.
Jeff: You’re a Buckeye.
Jim: I love it. It was a trip. So, I would tell all of my stories about Bush. And he was all interested into my story about Bush and all that stuff and about my ancestry and all that story and everything. And then he started talking about there was a surveillance thing on campus. Well, this guy wore a red jacket and was in one of the very radical groups on campus, a Trotskyite type group. And he said this guy who invented the Nazi rockets scientists who came over Werner von Braun.
Jeff: Yeah, I know what you are talking about.
Jim: He was this famous Nazi. And people said, gee, people don’t even know this guy’s background. So I said, yeah, that’s weird, what’s he doing speaking on campus? So I agreed to just go in and hold up signs and we weren’t telling everybody not to go on. We just wanted everybody to know who he was. And so when Phil found out, he got real upset. He got real mad. He said, that guy is a Socialist Worker’s Party guy, he’s no good. He said, Well, there’s a surveillance program on campus and all this stuff. And so I said, What are you spying on me or something? And he said, ‘You’re fair game, Jim.’ So it’s like some kind of a love hatred. Like, I didn’t really love Phil, but it was interesting that he was really interested in my whole history and everything. But I was being used to give him credentials as a leftist.
But he knew and he talked to my dad, and my dad would talk to him about Castro and about the McCarthy period and everything like that. And he liked talking to my dad. Sonny Ochs, his sister said, ‘There wouldn’t be a Phil Ochs if it weren’t for Jim’. And Phil knew a lot about Castro, he knew about everything. And so he started writing pro articles about Castro and started his own newspaper mimeographed it right out of our dorm room there called the word. And he was an excellent journalist. Phil, he was very intelligent, much smarter than me.
And he had this kind of a bossy attitude like he wanted to be the leader of a revolution. I think I was more laid back and I was kind of weary of all this kind of stuff. But we had started a group called The Singing Socialists and he learned a few songs that I taught him some chords on the guitar, taught him about folk singing. And the first song he wrote was the Cuban Invasion about the Bay of Pigs. And so we learned and he started writing a couple of songs. And so we started singing around campus as the Singing Socialists. And so we went out and did a party at a big Republican big guy’s in Columbus. And we sang some songs and somebody came up to us after and said, Are you guys communists? And I kind of laugh because I’ve heard the drill before but it kind of threw Phil. He was no communist that for sure. So he told me after that, he said Jim, we’ve got to change the name of the group to ‘The Sundowners’ because he loved the movies of Robert Mitchum. And I said, why do you want to do that? Well, it’s more euphonious, it sounds better. So I kind of went along with it, but it kind of took all the fun out of it for me.
But anyway, so we were ‘The Sundowners.’ Then he was telling me, ‘Jim, your stories, you got to write letters to people, but you also got to send copies to everyone.’ So he’s like giving me advice on how to get my story out and everything. He came back one time, he went to New York, his sister Sunny is out there and he knew some people and comes back and says, Jim, you should go to the village. Bob Dylan’s urn is making all kinds of noise and big things. And so we made a deal where we meet up. I was going to drop out because I wasn’t doing too well in school. I wanted to drop out before I flunked out playing the banjo all the time.
And Phil was reading stories to me about Oswald in Russia, He knew about that. What do you think of this, Jim? What do you think of Cuba? Nice to have dreams about going to Cuba on a boat. Because Phil kept talking about Cuba, he had that song, The Bay of Pigs and everything. And now he says Kennedy is gonna kill Castro. And I’m going, ‘what do you mean’. I don’t think they’re gonna do it. He says, ‘Yeah, they are’. So he knew all about that Operation Mongoose and all that. He knew stuff and he was special. I think they were using him.
Jeff: Yeah, it sounds like almost he was there early on to watch you. I mean my gut reaction is that he was an agent or at least a double agent of some kind.
Jim: Well, he was very special guy. They make him feel like he’s really important, that’s how they get you. And he was very ambitious. He wanted to really make it. And he thought this would work for him. So anyway, we got to New York. And it’s very funny when I first went to New York, my mom wanted me to go, and stayed one night at a hotel, my mom at the St. Moritz. And then I had to go and stay at the YMCA. She went back to Cleveland and I was supposed to go help one of her friends with a musical. Friend of my mom’s was writing a musical and she was supposed to be there in New York and everything. But my grandmother wanted me to go to the Peppermint Lounge. She said my cousin, Big Saul, he owns the Peppermint Lounge, that’s what she thought. So you get a job there.
So I went over to the Peppermint Lounge and I might meet this little guy there. And it was in the daytime and he was, what are you doing here? I said, well, my grandma said, Big So said I may go get a job singing. So he makes a call. And then there was a woman up there too with him and he says, Oh, Jim, somebody’s trying to set you up. And I’m thinking, oh, not again. So he says, listen, go down to the village. She says that’s where all the folk singers go. So I grab my guitar and I think I still had my suitcase at the YMCA at that point.
So I go to the village and I meet this girl there the first night I was there. And she turns out to be Betsy Doster, who is later married to one of the guys who knew Paul McCartney. Forget the name of their group, but an English guy. And she warned me too, she said, you better be careful. So I stayed at her place that night. She said, ‘lot of strange things going on in the village at that time.’ So the next night I go into another coffeehouse called the Rafio’s. And there’s Jean, my future wife, she’s there singing. And her girlfriend Alice became Phil’s wife and she’s waiting tables. So Jean invited me to her house that night and I slept there with her and then we became an instant duet. In fact, my second night, it was all crazy. And then Phil shows up after I’m with Jean and we’re putting together a duet, and he wants us to be a trio. He comes to New York and he drops out of Ohio State just before he was going to graduate, which is very strange. But he wanted to be in New York right down at that time.
And it’s so funny that I got to New York actually around June of 1962, and that just happened to be the same time Oswald showed up in New York from Russia. So it’s like everything’s on schedule here, like really strange. Phil’s dad was, he never told me this, but I found out later that his dad’s folks, the grandparents were from Russia-Poland too. Just like mine. He never told me that, though. So we had this thing, the old world connection in our genes, I guess Allen Dulles would appreciate that.
So one day Phil comes over and he says, ‘Jim, there’s a plot to kill President Kennedy.’ And he’s saying Hoover is a bad guy and all this stuff. And he’s with this National Security, he could have been National Security Agency, I don’t know what it was. It could have been a bunch of different agencies all mixed together because they do that a lot, and then they call it national security, multi-agency task force or whatever they wanted to. And they can just make up stuff. They could have been just pulling Phil’s leg, or to use him. So he says, ‘if you find out anything, let me know’. He wanted to know if I knew about it. And so this is why he’s going off to the Fair Play for Cuba committee to try to find out more.
Jeff: When was this about?
Jim: This had to be months before the actual assassination. I have a hard time thinking about it because once I just blurted out with Jean and I weren’t even married yet. But I’m not sure exactly how I didn’t write it down, so I don’t know exactly how many months before the assassination that he said this then. I remember shortly afterwards the FBI shows up and they want to know where Phil is. And because Phil told me that Hoover’s a bad guy, I didn’t tell them anything about any plot to kill Kennedy. So I figure these are the bad guys and they’re probably after Phil or whatever.
So that’s how this whole thing is. I was naive and crazy. I probably should have just told them. I should have just called the White House that ‘this guy Phil Ochs is really weird, “is this for real?”. That’s what I should have done. If anything like this ever happens, that’s what I’m going to do, not keep anything secret. That’s one thing I learned is don’t keep anything secret. It’s crazy when you keep. So, they were setting up Phil for whatever.
After the Hootenanny tour, I get back to L.A, I’m alive. And I got back there with Jean, crazy people on the bus and all that stuff. But I didn’t see Phil for months until we got back to New York, I think it was the early 64, somewhere around there probably. And then Phil shows up for first time and we couldn’t find Phil. We were looking for him. And Phil said, Well, I was in Dallas. What were you doing there? He says, I was a national security observer. And I said, Did you have a gun? Yeah I had a gun. Come on, Phil, you had shot yourself in the leg. They wouldn’t give you a gun. Oh, okay. No, I didn’t have a gun. So I said, well, how can you prove you were there? He says, ‘Well, they were filming me. I was being filmed right across from the Book Depository grudge doorway of the Dal/Tex building.’ So I always remember that, where he was in front of the garage door. And so I said, well what are you going to do? Well, we didn’t know what the hell, because I thought, well, maybe the truth will come out and they’ll want us to be witnesses or whatever possible.
But, I was just reporting about what I knew because I knew where Hoover was. So I knew right away it was even before l got back to New York early 64, I had started talking to people in California about all this stuff. We went on a radio show in the mountain someplace and maybe it was Lookout Mountain. Anyway, before we did the Hollywood Hootenanny tour, we were on The Andy Williams Show in The Good Time Singers group. It’s The Good Time Singers. And so after the Kennedy assassination, I got back and we’re going to drop out of the group for good. So I went there in this studio, I think, was NBC and probably looking for a check or something and tell them, well, goodbye, Jim and Jean, we’re going to be a duo on our own knowing we had a record deal coming up with Jack Linkletter. I still got that old record.
And so I’m leaving the studio and Andy Williams comes up and says, ‘Jim, I heard you saw some things in Texas’. Because I was telling people and he goes, yeah, well, go on. I said, well, it was a government operation. He just looked at me and just turned around and walked away like he heard enough, he didn’t want to hear anymore. I don’t blame him because it’s so dangerous. But I didn’t know at that time. I found out many years later. My mom told me that Andy Williams was a pallbearer at that RFK funeral. He was a good friend of RFK. So maybe I’m the first guy that ever got the word out to RFK about what was going on. But RFK was afraid to talk about it. He was there at the autopsy and he knew the autopsy was fake. He was worried they were gonna kill him, too. And his family were scared too. Everybody was scared and they still are.
Jeff: Well, Teddy Kennedy, it seems like half his kids have been wiped out and it’s just unbelievable. I realize you weren’t there, but why do you think when Phil Ochs was in Africa, it seems pretty suspicious that some guy would jump out of a dark street and just slash his throat.
Jim: No, they didn’t slash his throat. Phil told me the story in 1974 when I went there. And he told me a lot of things, too, and showed me JFK autopsy pictures and other stuff. But anyway, he is telling me about the story, he says, Jim, this is a puzzle with me. He went to Zan…
Jeff: Tanzania, that’s where Mount Kilimanjaro is.
Jim: Tanzania, yes. He says, ‘I was there and I was on the beach that night, and these (edit) three guys jumped me and grabbed me and strangled me and left me on the beach. And he said the funniest thing is he was puzzled because the only thing they stole from him was his knife. So he still had his passport, his wallet. He never reported anything to the cops. I said, they’re sending a message to you. And that’s what he also thought.
So he always thought the CIA was in on it on doing that because they think he knew too much or whatever. They’re trying to keep him scared, and they did. Phil was always paranoid that they were going to kill him because he knew too much. And it was basically because of Dallas. Dallas would kill him. That’s why he killed himself because he couldn’t figure it out. And he couldn’t handle it like nobody else. Actually nobody can handle it, I found so far.
Jeff: Where did you find those pictures of him when he was in Dallas?
When I first found it, it was like my friend in Cleveland send me a tape of the man who killed Kennedy, History Channel tape. And I didn’t have a computer or anything, but I had a TV and I played it on the TV. And they’re showing the building next to the Book Depository. That’s where Phil had told me he was being filmed. He was sort of on camera. He was looking right at the camera, right in the doorway. The garage door of the Dal/Tex building. He’s telling the truth. So I took my camera and I’m taking pictures off the TV with my camera and they’re very crude. But I had those pictures and I started sending around and I would send them to the Congress investigating all this stuff, whatever.
Jeff: What year was that about?
Jim: Oh, when he sent me, that would have been, I’m not sure, it was probably after George Bush got elected in 1988, when all this other stuff about Bush was coming out like those FBI memos about Bush and the Assassination.
Jeff: Do you still have that History Channel tape?
Jim: I might but it’s on the Internet. You can search Kennedy and it’s already on the Internet. So then when I got my computer and started doing all that stuff, then I went and I ordered a copy of the tape, a DVD. Then I took it to a special guy in Tampa here who made copies for the computer. So I had copies of that and a bunch of other stuff that I thought was interesting in that. So it wasn’t even until I kept looking. I studied Dealey Plaza thoroughly. I think I’ve seen every picture it was ever taken of Dealey Plaza and more. Every picture that was taken at the Texas theater, too. And so that was a big puzzle about Phil in Tanzania.
So he figured that CIA had send him a message that he wasn’t really robbed. He didn’t have to go to the embassy and say they got my passport and they got all my wallet and my credit card. No, it wasn’t any of that. Didn’t report to the police. They only took his knife. So it was the Spook’s session, and they strangled him pretty bad. He thought he lost his voice but he didn’t completely lose it, but it hurt his voice and freaked him out. So he’s telling me this in 1974 at his house.
And then we’re doing the midnight special show. That’s why I was there. He flew me there. When I first went there in L.A, the guy who picked me up at the airport was A.J. Weberman. I don’t know if you ever heard of him, but he was one of the first people, he wrote a book with his friend called Coup de Tat in America. So this was 1974. He picks me up at the airport and he says he’s there to pick me up, and is driving me to Phil’s house. And he says, I heard there was a Hollywood trip. And I said, Yeah, tell me about it. Hootenanny was being used as a cover for these plotters. They hated folk music, Hoover was afraid of folk music. So that’s what this whole thing was about. You know the first people to sing it at the Martin Luther King Washington March, ‘ I have a dream’, it was Bob Dylan and Joan Baez. They were the big stars. And then Phil’s FBI files mentioned right in the first page that he knows Bob Dylan. There are the names in FBI files. That’s why they are interested as their interest is in folksingers.
So I kind of feel like responsible in a way for Phil because he got me into this, but I also got him into it. So, Phil’s a total mystery. He got in trouble in South America, too. He was in Paraguay, arrested and got out of Bolivia because he called the embassy. An Kissinger must have known. Three or four serious guys came over my house when I was in New York staying at Jean’s old apartment probably during 1973 around the time Phil was organizing his Chile concert or something. And they go on, “Kissinger is paying Phil”.
Well, I didn’t deny it, but I didn’t want to tell them anything that I knew I suspected. So they left. Then when I went out to see Phil and 74 in L.A when A.J. Weberman picked me up and all that stuff and Phil he told me about Africa. He also told me about South America, too. But he didn’t say the guy, his friend there, who set him up for that concert where he got in trouble was President of the National Student Association, which was CIA.
Jeff: Yeah. The NSA. Were you the one that send me the article about how they got in the ratings? Well, it was the Atlantic magazine or something, had a huge expose.
Jim: I’m not sure maybe somebody else did. I sent that to another friend of mine who’s doing research on this stuff. And so I said, Phil, some guys told me that Kissinger was paying you. And he got real mad, but he didn’t deny it. He said, well, I’m working with an up and coming Air Force officer. And he gave me a name. I think. I know. We’re checking it out. I think I know who it is. But he’s a general now. Anyway, he’ll probably deny that he knows Phil because anybody who knows anything about Phil being in Dallas won’t want to be associated with it. They want to say nothing. That’s the problem with all this stuff. These people I know probably everybody’s going to deny it. But that’s the bag I’m in, I’m the guy with the bad news. The truth is, nobody likes the truth. That’s my problem. But I have to live with it because that’s my whole life. I’m the guy that tells the Truth and they’re afraid not knowing how to deal with it. So that’s my bag.
But I always felt Phil is always such a mystery to me. I’m always trying to figure him out and I am not able to figure out everything about Phil. But he committed suicide. A lot of people think, he was suicided (murdered) and all that stuff. But I don’t think so. He talked about suicide very much with all his friends and he didn’t talk about it much with me. Once we were doing a concert on Chile at a club. It was at one of these clubs (Cafe Wha?) where we went in and they were playing the Deep Throat on the screen. We were singing, and Phil said on stage, I even saw on video of that because I forgot about it, Phil says, ‘Phil Ochs is dead.’ So it was at that point, he was already determined that it was curtains for him because he was tricked, it was a trick.
Jeff: He had an alias of a CIA Agent.
Jim: John Train, also Luke Train. A lot of people think that John Train is a real guy. Well, he is and Bush knew him as he was involved in CIA stuff, but he denies he knew Phil. One of my friends got a hold of him. I got a guy who’s doing a lot of work and he says, John Train doesn’t know who Phil Ochs is, but John Train was involved in a lot of stuff in South America, too. So if he did know Phil, they’re not going to say anything because they’re not allowed to. This is a top-secret stuff. I’m sure Phil probably had signed a secret agreement of some kind, that’s standard because they want you to know that you can’t talk. And if you do then you are in trouble. You do not talk about this secret stuff. So he had to hear it here. So he knew that. He tells me he was working with this general, wasn’t a general at that time but was an officer in Air Force.
And I said, well, what you keep promising, we’re going to talk about this. We’re going to talk about Dallas and everything like that. He says, they told me that if I talk, they’ll say I’m crazy. And then I’m working for them. So there was enough right there to shut him up because he knew I would have done more than that. I mean he didn’t want anybody to know that he had a mental problem either. So he was crazy and he probably knew he was crazy.
Jeff: Who are you talking about that had mental problems?
Jim: Oh, Phil Ochs.
Jeff; He also had a drinking problem. But do you think it’s possible that he might have just been totally fucked up as a victim, I will say of MKUltra?
Jim: Well, it’s very similar. There’s a lot of story of the MKUltra, and hypnosis and torture. But they try to make it as scary as possible. But I think they don’t have a program like we are going to hypnotize you and you’re going to go out and kill this guy, like that movie Manchurian Candidate. Well, that’s what everybody wants you to think because they want you to be scared about all this. But basically, if they want to use you, they study you and they know everything you like, everybody you know, all your weaknesses. So they know how to manipulate you. And even in hypnosis, it’s about how we can help you. They use hypnosis for helping you.
I just found an article on hypnosis just today about Carl Jung, Swiss psychologist.
Allen Dulles was a follower and so was Jean, my wife. She majored in psychology. Jean was ahead of me, too. She was smarter than me. Both better educated than I was. But anyway, Jean was very much a follower of Carl Jung. I should talk about him and so I’m looking, I’m studying what he knows. This is a very bad I’ll send you this article. And so I wrote here at the end here, my comment, ‘My wife, Jean Roy Glover, Jim and Jean was a psychology major and talked a lot about our favorite, Carl Young as a child. She had polio in her leg and was helped amazingly with the sister kidney treatment, which has some similarity or synchronicity to hypnosis or, as they say, mind over matter.
Along with physical therapy, Jean was a great dancer and singer. Jean also was afraid to talk about the Kennedy assassination. Whenever I talk about it, she wouldn’t say, ‘No, you’re lying to them’ She would just be completely silent.
And in 1967 edit: (or 68), when we went to England and France, it was kind of like on a CIA mission there. But when I got to England in Oxford, they invited me this big dinner in this big hall and there were a lot of big English wigs around and they’re asking me about the Kennedy assassination. So I told the story basically. Isn’t it funny that one of the files released a couple of years ago was that about 15 minutes before the Kennedy assassination, a caller in Oxford got a call from somebody who said, ‘something very important is going to happen very soon, call your editor and all that.’ And it was picked up by James Angleton.
Jeff: He was in the CIA.
Jim: Yeah, he ran the counterintelligence. And sent it to Hoover. So Hoover just came out that somebody tipped off the British at the same place I’m talking about in Oxford right there. And so then we go over and a friend of Jean’s wanted to take some documents or something over to France for the anti-Charles De Gaulle demonstrations that were going on there. Anyway, this girl told us about it in L.A, but then she was in Paris waiting for us to come. I guess we brought the documents. When we got there, she was scared all the time. I ask, ‘what you scared about?’ She says, ‘I don’t know.’ She says we’ll go to the Sorbonne tonight there is a rally. And so we went to the Sorbonne and then somebody called Jeanne over to talk to her. A lot of stuff happens when they separate me and Jean. And then I’m sitting there by myself in the front, big audience, they’re having a rally there in the Sorbonne.
Jeff: Against De Gaulle.
Jim: Yes. And so I hear this guy behind me say, ‘Hey Jim’, and I turn around and he’s got a movie camera pointed at me. And so I didn’t think much of it. No kidding we are celebrity here, I guess so. So then many years later, I am seeing a documentary on the student demonstrations against de Gaulle and they’re showing the Sorbonne and they’re showing this guy sitting alone, and I can see my back that I’m looking at. And you don’t hear ‘Hey Jim’s because it’s just no sound on it.
Jeff: Yeah. Camera back in those days.
Jim: But there I turned around and there I’m just looking at the camera, and the narrator saying, ‘And there were American agents in the audience.’ So they had me pegged as being an American agent.
Jeff: Is that whole film available on YouTube?
Jim: After I started talking about it like I usually do, my big mouth, they probably took it down.
Jeff: The CIA tried to assassinate de Gaulle at least six times because he wanted to get out of NATO.
Jim: Well, I believe it. He wanted to give Algeria their independence.
Jeff: And he wanted to relive Vietnam. The only reason he didn’t get killed is because his Secret Service was loyal to him, unlike JFK and RFK.
Jim: In fact, although student demonstrations, he compromises with those students, it was very good to give them whatever they were yelling about de Gaulle. He did okay. He wasn’t bashing heads or anything like that with his students. It wasn’t like New York now. New York is all boarded up now.
Jeff: One thing what I really recommend is and this is really valuable historically, everything that you have gone through and it would be wonderful if you could sit down and I don’t know who else you could get involved but if you could just come up with sort of a timeline of when all this happened, it would just be really useful for historians and researchers in the future.
Jim; Well, it might be, it’s just my memories. The thing about my stories is they probably wanted me to tell the stories of folk music, and it’s a folk history what I’m talking about. And that’s what folk history is about. It’s about somebody telling a story. And that’s what folk music is about, somebody tells a story and somebody else goes through. It gets changed around and everything. But it’s the kind of history that’s kind of special. They took so many pictures at the autopsy and of all secret stuff.
LBJ said, ‘well, you won’t be able to see this for 75 years.’ So that’s when I’m like 97-98 years old when I’ll be able to see this stuff. You’re never going to see it. They’ll never show it. But that’s my point is that this there and LBJ knew it was going on. So he said, well here’s the deal, we are going to let you see the stuff, but you’re going to probably be dead before you see it.
Jeff: Just recently they had that big JFK release of information but Trump withheld, citings like 300 or 400 documents. Well, those were obviously 300 or 400 documents that would definitely expose the fact that the CIA was involved, the military or elements of the mafia, the Cuban fascist.
Jim: In my reports, too, it was there. I reported to the FBI in 91 when I was running against Bush as a dark horse candidate down here and telling my story.
Jeff: Jeb Bush?
Jim: No, H.W. Bush. This was in 91, I was running against him. I called the FBI because I was running against him. I figured, hey, I’ve got to let it all hang out. And I told them, I called them again two years ago and gave some more information. But anyway, that’s what I was doing and I remembered Bush was supposed to give a speech at Brandon High School down here. And I heard about it and I called Brandon High School and said, wait a minute, if he’s going to speak there, I’ve got to speak there, too, because I’m a candidate here, too. And it really, really felt… So then I found out that Bush canceled out his speech at Brandon, and then I get a call from CNN. They wanted me to go down to Miami, Florida, for a dark horse debate with all the dark horse candidates, crazy people like me running for president. So they paid for my trip down there to Miami. I’m telling the guys about my story, about Kennedy’s assassination. The guy at the bar from CNN says they’re definitely going to kill you.
Jeff: Well I interviewed Douglas Valentine and he has exposed all kinds of stuff about the CIA. And I asked him in our interview, I said, why wouldn’t they kill you? And he said, I think a lot of it is, it helps them to know what I can find out, it helps them to who I have contacts with, where did I get my information. So they almost look upon some of the truth tellers like this. I interviewed John Potash twice about his two books, about all the black musicians that have been assassinated and framed up like Brian Jones and Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin, it just goes on and on and on. I ask, haven’t they killed him? Well, first off, they’re still in power, it hadn’t changed a damn thing.
Basically they looked upon as almost like researchers for the CIA, the FBI, etc. So we tell our stories and then they know what to cover up. They know nobody ever listened to Glover anyway. So they knew that right from the instance that I was perfect for them to be a spy for them. I was their spy, that’s why I was on that tour. I found out that bus had a camera on it. So everybody on there, Bush and Hoover, they are all being filmed. So without me they had him over a barrel because that would have ruined Bush and it would have ruined Hoover if it would’ve been known that the bus was a crime scene and they had it filmed. It was unbelievable, they had everybody.
Jeff: Anyway, my suggestion is maybe to think about doing some kind of a timeline for history’s sake, because you moved around a lot. And everything that Phil Ochs told you, he moved around a lot. It’d be nice to kind of place some dates and some some locales.
I think it would be really, really helpful for researchers in the future.
Jim: Well, sure. So keep in touch and let me know. I do my best writing when I’m answering questions. I’m a lousy writer when I just sit down to tell my story. But I have some of it already written down. But I got too much actually on my computer. I’ve got all this stuff that I’ve put out. But the best stuff is when somebody is asking me questions and I’m telling them what’s going on, that’s when I’m most focused.
Jeff: Well be sure and backup everything you have on your hard drive and give it to somebody not in your house that you trust just in case they try to destroy your computer or whatever.
Jim: Oh, they’ve done that a couple times already. I had to get it all erased. They’ll fuck up my computer so that nothing works and then I have to take it in and wipe it clean.
Start all over again, twice already.
Jeff: Well you should backup.
Jim: I have backup now.
Jeff: Get it out of your house and back it up every month or so. That’s what I do every month, I backup on the cloud. Well at least it’s there and just in case there’s a back up. Then I have hard external hard drives and I back up on those.
Jim: Just got a message now, ‘The disk was not ejected properly. Always eject disk before unplugging or turning it off.’ I don’t know what you’re talking about, I will just hit ‘OK.’
Jeff: Well, actually, there is one thing I want to ask you about, you mentioned in all of our emails that when you were in Topanga Canyon, you said you met Charles Manson.
You picked him up.
Jim: Yes, I picked them up. I was coming back from The Corral, that club out there. And it was kind of like right on the top of the range that goes down to the valley. When I’m coming back from the Coral I picked up a guy and two girls hitchhiking. And he could have been just killing that guy Gary Hinman or on the way to, that guy they killed, a drug dealer. I think I may have bought some grass from him. So I pick them up. He starts right in telling me a story. So what do you do. I say, I am musician. He says, Oh, I am, too, and I’ve got this deal with the Beach Boys. He tells me he whole life was spent mostly in prison. Well, this guy is really weird. And so luckily, I dropped them off. They got off away from my house. I’m glad he didn’t see where I lived. But then I realized it was Charlie Manson I picked up.
Jeff: You know, I’ve got to read Dave McGowan’s book. What is that book?
Jim: Laurel Canyon.
Jeff: Yeah, Laurel Canyon, I’ve got to read that. I’m going to order and buy it because John Potash referred to it with his book about how they use drugs to fuck all the musicians up and glorify drug use. Anyway, I read Dave McGowan’s great book about the moon landing as a gigantic hoax, which he was obviously very right when you read it, y0u just can see this it is impossible that we went there. So Dave McGowan was quite a guy. Anyway, apparently, that book, ‘Weird Scenes From Laurel Canyon, is quite good. Have you read it?
Jim: I read a lot of it. You can get a lot of access around the Internet, it’s on the web.
Jeff: To honor the guy, I’m going to buy the book, and apparently he has a lot of stuff in the print book.
Jim: I don’t believe that thing about the moon landing. I don’t buy that. But that’s ok, we can’t agree on everything.
Jeff: We’ll read Dave McGowan’s book, it’s online. When once you read, you are going, Yeah, there’s no way we landed on the moon with a computer the size of a Texas instrument calculator from 1968. But anyway, let’s talk a little before we leave because actually my first question that I wanted to ask you about was your music. And I’d love to hear what you have to say. Who taught you to play the guitar and banjo and who inspired you to pen your lyrics.
Jim: My folks had record players and my mom said I started playing a record as soon as I could walk and I loved listening to records. And then my dad took me to a Pete Seeger concert once. And I go, wow, I can do that. And then my brother in law, Roy, taught me some guitar. And then I got interested in the banjo, listening to the Weavers and Pete Seeger and all that stuff. My folks had a lot of records. And then I bought Pete Seeger’s book, How to Play the Five String Banjo, Tribe learning, Bluegrass. But that’s really hard.
But nowadays I have essential tremors and so my hands are pretty shaky when I try to play. I used to be able to be pretty steady on the guitar. And when I listen to some of my old stuff, I go, how the hell did I do that. And I just can’t do it anymore. No fucking way. But I still have my guitar here. And I love to horse around with it once in a while. And just it’s just fun messing around with it.
I haven’t been doing it much lately. I’ve been mostly still on the Internet arguing with these Lone Nutters that believe in the Warren Commission. It’s just amazing when you’re dealing with these people, all they do is ridicule even when you’ll give them stuff that’s been researched and documented. Oh, no, they think it’s all junk and everything. So I’m kind of losing interest and trying to convince people that have already made up their minds. It’s kind of like chasing the wind.
Jeff: Well, they’re actually in the minority because since 1963, every Gallup poll ever done in the United States shows that the majority, the Americans know that their government killed Kennedy. I guess it’s just the sense of helplessness and being powerless to do anything about it. I think that’s probably the most frustrating thing.
What do you do? Where do you start?
Jim: I’ve signed so many petitions of starting a new investigation, but I don’t see how they’re going to investigate this because you’re not even allowed to release anything that might hurt the government’s reputation or hurt foreign relations. So it’s against the law basically for people to say anything who know anything. They’re not allowed. And they’ve already signed secrecy agreements anyway. So how can there be a real investigation, there can’t. They’re just stories. People remember stuff. That’s where I come in, I guess. Maybe stories are better than documents because the documents haven’t changed anything. But they got all these documents.
Jeff: And the really incriminating ones, they are going to hide it. Just like Trump kept. I think it was 300 or 400 documents out of the thousands that were released. He kept the 300 to 400 that were the smoking gun.
Jim: Well, they say, the reason why they won’t release it is because innocent people will get hurt. They say that about every investigation, because for one thing, you can black out names of people and always there’s ways of doing this. And besides, there was a law passed that they have to release it, two years ago, but they haven’t done it. So they’re violating the law by trying to say, they’re going to hurt innocent people. That’s bullshit, because you can redact names and you can have a judge or somebody who has the clearance who will really look at whatever it is and look at whatever the names are. There’s ways they do this, but they don’t want to face reality. And I don’t think it’s ever going to happen.
The first book I read was by Gerald Ford, ‘Portrait of an Assassin’, and they never did answer who was Agent 179, which I suppose had been Oswald’s informant number. But one thing he said was true. He said this debate will go on for a thousand years. He realized that they couldn’t prove it because there wasn’t a trial. And everybody knows it. LBJ gave the order to find Oswald guilty with no Confederates at large. So only use that evidence because it’s for national security. And he warned everybody that if we don’t, I’ll have to bomb Russia because he has a Russian Wife and that he wanted to go to Cuba. All that bullshit.
So the whole thing was set up so nobody could ever find the truth because it’s national security. It’s like we lied to save the world from nuclear war. So they sold that and they bought it. Warren and all these guys, they bought that argument that he’s got a Russian wife there, the Congress wants to look into this, we’ve got to have a commission to just get rid of this. And he’s talking to Hoover, this is just a local murder, we can’t let this screw up our country. They get away with it.
But it’s documented all the stuff I just said. It’s all documented. But what does it do? Does it change anything? Not really. It’s just part of history that I’m probably going to have to deal with the rest of my life, but at least it makes my life interesting. At least I’m not bored yet. It is an adventure in a way. I think that’s what I feel like, too. And so it’s a mystery about Phil. He couldn’t come out and say that he was working for the government because he had a double personality. When Phil Ochs, the folk singer was real for social equality and all this stuff and anti war. But he had a dual personality. John train was like his CIA spy side. And so CIA spy side John Train had to kill Phil Ochs because Phil Ochs basically was too afraid to tell the truth. I can see why. Who has told the truth?
Jeff: Amazing. Yeah.
Jim: Well, thank you. It is amazing, I must say.
Jeff: Well, I hope all this will get heard by a lot of people that don’t know about you and Since I have a lot of international reach. It is fascinating and frustrating at the same time, because it is hard to believe nothing’s going to change. But it would be interesting for you to try to get as much of this down for researchers in the future. And if you can whatever it is you have, I’ll be happy to put it in my head, create a page for you on China Rising Radio Sinoland with all your documents to stuff for the whole world access if you want. I’d be happy to do that. Kind of as a research directory so that people can access it. I’d be happy to do that because I’m actually the curator of the Bio Weapon Truth Commission and we’ve got quite a library of about bio weapons and chemical weapons. Your story about Cuba, the biochemical cancer thing is really intriguing. I have to look that up.
Jim: Lee And Me. It’s the story of Judith Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald. And there’s so much stuff on the Internet, too, that you can read for free.
Jeff: Well, I’d like to get the book. In that book there’s that story about the two black guys that were killed.
Jim: Yes, and a new one put on the History Channel where she tells the whole story being in New Orleans and knowing the Oswald and what they’re up to. Lee really wasn’t a communist at all. He was acting the part for that was his mission. I have to look that up.
Maybe it’s on YouTube. Thank you very much for listening.
Jeff: Well, thank you for talking and telling the world. I just think it’s almost like when we hear all that you went through in your life and John Potash and how Chairman Fred and how Chairman Fred Hampton Junior, I interviewed him. And you just see how involved the deep state the CIA, the FBI, the NSA, the ATF, the IRS, it’s just like everybody. We live in like a plasticine world. Just surreal. It’s really just like we live in a fricking matrix.
And the fact that they would go to that much trouble to seek out people like Phil and you and Jean and everybody else and kill Brian Jones and kill Jimi Hendrix and Tupac Shakur and so many others. You just dislike the West, it is just like a gigantic lie. We don’t have democracy. We live in a very contrived almost like simulacrum of democracy is pretty scary, actually.
Jim: Well, some of us are talking about it, and at least we have the ability so far to talk about it. So that’s one thing. I know in some countries you can’t even talk about what’s going on there in their country. At least we got that and I’m going to hold onto that.
Jeff: Well, we need to hold onto something.
Jim: We’re screwed up but at least we can talk about it. Thanks for talking about it. I know you were born in the U.S.
Jeff: Yeah. I grew up in Oklahoma.
Jim: Oklahoma, they had a club called the Buddhi there, it was a great folk club. That’s where I met the folk group that saying ‘ One took over the line sweet Jesus.’
Jeff: Yeah. Well, where was Pop Brainard’s club?
Jim: Oh, it was in Oklahoma City.
Jeff: What was it called?
Jim: The Buddhi.
Jeff: Ok. I wonder if it’s still around? I never saw that.
Jim: Oh, probably closed up in the 70s. That was one of the one of the first places we played after the Kennedy assassination. We had a gig there. That’s when the Beatles first came out. I remember seeing their first album in the record store window.
Jeff: ‘One took over the line sweet Jesus.’
Jim: Mike Brewer and Tom Shipley, I knew him in Cleveland.
Jeff: Well, listen, it’s late for you. My gosh. It’s after midnight for you. it’s 11:30 in the evening for you?
Jim: Let me see what time it is. It’s 1:30 A.M now. Well listen if you ever come to Florida, look me up.
Jeff: I’ve got a bunch of people in Florida to meet and when I go back to the States the next time, I’ve got to do a Florida tour and see all these People . I’ve got relatives down there. I’ve got friends there. And I with my wife will need to spend about a month in Florida just to see all the people we know there. So I’m looking forward to shaking your hand sooner than later.
This is Jeff J. Brown, China Rising Radio Sinoland in Chiang Mai Thailand we just had one of the most amazing interviews with Jim Glover, singer, songwriter, troubadour, revolutionary songwriter, and who has probably one of the most exotic and exciting and interesting life stories I’ve ever heard. Well, it is unbelievable. Thank you for it. Thank you for being on the show.
Jim: Thank you, Jeff.
Jeff: Just as soon as I put this up, I will get it to you so you can put it on your Facebook.
Jim: Wow, Great. All right. Bye.
Jeff: Talk to you later. Bye bye.
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Why and How China works: With a Mirror to Our Own History
JEFF J. BROWN, Editor, China Rising, and Senior Editor & China Correspondent, Dispatch from Beijing, The Greanville Post
Jeff J. Brown is a geopolitical analyst, journalist, lecturer and the author of The China Trilogy. It consists of 44 Days Backpacking in China – The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass (2013); Punto Press released China Rising – Capitalist Roads, Socialist Destinations (2016); and BIG Red Book on China (2020). As well, he published a textbook, Doctor WriteRead’s Treasure Trove to Great English (2015). Jeff is a Senior Editor & China Correspondent for The Greanville Post, where he keeps a column, Dispatch from Beijing and is a Global Opinion Leader at 21st Century. He also writes a column for The Saker, called the Moscow-Beijing Express. Jeff writes, interviews and podcasts on his own program, China Rising Radio Sinoland, which is also available on YouTube, Stitcher Radio, iTunes, Ivoox and RUvid. Guests have included Ramsey Clark, James Bradley, Moti Nissani, Godfree Roberts, Hiroyuki Hamada, The Saker and many others. [/su_spoiler]
Jeff can be reached at China Rising, email@example.com, Facebook, Twitter, Wechat (Jeff_Brown-44_Days) and Whatsapp: +86-13823544196.
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