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By Jeff J. Brown

Pictured above: Moti Nissani says the West has to get back to ancient Greek direct democracy, if it hopes to survive.

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Sixteen years on the streets, living and working with the people of China, Jeff

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Audio interview:

Today’s show is with a special guest, Dr. Moti Nissani. Dr. Nissani is an eminent thinker on interdisciplinary environmental issues. This is Part 2 of our very popular interview last month. Picking up with the Fermi Paradox and highlighting some of the first installment’s key points, we then share a fascinating, wide-ranging, yet inspiring discussion about the only hope for human survival in the West: direct democracy and localized production.

Here are the links to Dr. Nissani’s articles on Veterans Today and Dissident Voice:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/07/02/in-defense-of-the-july-5-2015-greek-referendum/

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/06/26/the-human-experiment-is-probably-coming-to-an-end/

http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/07/seven-billion-cheers-for-direct-democracy/
Here is the link to the article about employees taking ownership of businesses, as a model for direct democracy: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/01/may-day-workers-of-the-world-unite-and-take-over-their-factories

Transcript

Jeff J. Brown- All right, good morning, everybody Fans. Radio Sinoland out there across the planet. I’m very pleased to welcome back today, Dr. Moti Nissani, after our first interview that covered the broad theme of the Fermi paradox and direct democracy and we promised everybody out there a follow up interview. And I have Dr. Nissani back on the line today. How are you doing, Moti?

Moti Nissani- I’m doing very well, thank you and thank you for inviting me to talk again.

Jeff- I really, really glad to have you. You know, we had hundreds of people listen to that program on 44 days, SoundCloud, and which was very exciting and you even were inspired to write an article about our interview and expand on that. And you posted the article on veterans today and dissident voice, and I’ll put those on my Web site.

Moti- Yes.

Jeff- Can you please can you please tell us about your article and how you’d like to fill in some of the gaps that we left off from our first interview?

Moti- Yeah, basically, and I have to thank you for inviting me, because that’s where the inspiration for writing the article, which I wanted to do for a long time, but you know how things go and I just never got around to it.

So following the interview I just did, of course, the article would have would have more substance to it because it’s you know, you could sit down and I thought maybe I should if you would like to, just a few points off from the article.

And then or I would like to suggest that maybe you give us some of you. What do you think about the whole thing? And I’m sure you have somewhere you have been thinking about it for a long time.

Jeff- Absolutely, so far away that we all are so anxious to hear you that.

Moti- Thank you. OK, the first thing that I added to the article is a point about specialization and that we tend to accept experts as people that we should listen to. But what happens is that in today’s world that experts are experts in one thing and apart from that, something they call a tunnel vision.

So they don’t see most experts don’t see the picture as a whole. If that’s what I try to do in the interview, provide kind of a holistic picture. Also, many of the experts, contemporary experts are bought and sold.

So if some of the ideas that we put forward, you and I in a first interview sounds a little bit odd, it could be that because of that, because experts are not telling the truth, many of them and many of them don’t know the truth because they are experts in one thing and ignorant about it.

So that’s one point I wanted to point out. The second point is that there are many warning signs that are surrounding us. If we just pay attention, most people don’t. Apparently, the world scientists, the pope, even the pope imagined that the pope is saying that we are in deep trouble and that we have to change the entire system.

And if we look around us, we find out so many things that are that are so many are warning sign that, for example, the air that you breathe right now in Beijing is not as good as it should be.

Jeff- Yeah.

Moti- Fukushima. Yeah, if that’s what you think of Fukushima, it could be. It could be. Some people are saying they are not telling us, but it could be that Tokyo eventually will have to be evacuated. Think of the Gulf of Mexico. Think of everybody knows about the Beas that the population is declining.

Jeff- It’s only about five percent.

Moti- It’s like all these all these signs that something. Yes, something bad Frogs’ I mean, we are we have the similar constitution to all these animals and our DNA is not that different from them. They’re going down, so they it’s a warning now.

The main point of our interview that I was trying to make is that, you know, somebody like Guy McPhearson. Talks about global warming or climate disruption, and he says that by itself is going to be the end of the human race, just that then you have somebody like Stephen Hawkins is talking about artificial intelligence.

And he said that by itself and many others could be the end of humanity. Now, each one of these specialists is focusing on one problem, but the point of the interview was that if we take the point of the article to.

OK, let’s say that that guy McPhearson, who is a scientist, an ecologist, he knows what he’s talking about. You say 100 percent or maybe if you push him against the wall, you’ll say the chances of extinction already it’s too late, 99 percent.

Stephen Hawkins, I don’t know what the probability he would give to artificial intelligence eventually being our destruction, but let’s say five percent. Now, if you go like that, we went down the line and looked at all the planetary boundaries, all the point that could eventually could be our undoing.

Nuclear war, what are the chances that it will take place and then if it takes place, what are the chances that it will bring about women extension? Let’s say, five percent. And so if and the point of the interview was if you were taking a holistic view of the situation, not just one or the other, but the whole thing and then I came up.

I mean, it’s frightening. But I came up when I did. I didn’t do it in interview. But when I tried to do it at home and look at all the points of risk at the whole picture and also the risks that we don’t know that we’ll find out later.

But that could be Domen, we are not aware that they are in danger. And also, if we look at its future technology, you take all of it together. And they came up, came up with the more than 90 percent probability that humanity will go extinct within the next 200 years unless we do something.

And of course, something is collectively what our actions are. We are criminally insane. In other words, we are committing crime against our fellow human beings and against our only home, the planet,

Jeff- Yeah, the pale will die across the sea.

Moti- Not you, not I, not your neighbor, but collectively, if you judged humanity as a collective, we are we are totally out of our mind. And so we lead, obviously, and we concluded with that. We need to find a way of somehow getting rid of the bankers, the parasites that control the world today and assert control of our lives.

And of course, towards then I, my point was that in my personal opinion, the only way that if we are going to fight for a better world, the goal should be what it’s called direct democracy. So that’s more or less what. And then

Jeff- It was a great article most of the time reading it.

Moti- Thank you and most of the time, I really would be interested in some in your own reflections on what because you didn’t get a chance to talk at all almost last night.

Jeff- That’s because you’re so engaging.

Moti- Thank you.

Jeff- Ok, well, for our fans out there, let me just point out a few things. You mentioned Beas. You mentioned honeybees. Uh, um, I Einstein, Albert Einstein, a physicist, uh, was smart enough to know. He’s actually quoted as saying that if we lose the bees we, humanity would not survive 48 hours.

And that’s actually a quote from one of the most eminent physicists who was much more holistic than people realize. And the four for everybody to understand. There’s a lot of controversy about the honeybees. The populations have dropped about 25 percent and are continuing to drop around the world.

And the consensus that the broad consensus is, is that is being caused by pesticides and especially the, uh, the pesticides that are used in agriculture. And so, again, those are manmade to pump up food production. Uh, and of course, Einstein is right.

If we lose if we lose the honeybees, we lose pollination, we lose pollination, we lose agriculture, and we’re all going to be dead or starving to death. And the next frogs and bats, frog frogs and bats, populations are dropping precipitously in some areas and slowly in other areas and the obvious answer is this one’s less mysterious is because of fungal infections.

And the thought is, is that these fungal infections that have never appear before are appearing now because of global warming and because these animals have spent millions of years in a certain niche, uh, which had a certain temperature.

And now that temperature is higher and it allows the fungus to grow on their skin and their and their bodies and it’s killing them terribly. Uh, also, Moti, you talked about specialization, uh, Joseph Tenter, you know, the collapse of complex societies.

That was one of his biggest arguments for complex societies collapsing is because of exactly that specialization. And we can now talk about specialization literally on a global level.

Uh, and I think we have to now look at you know, not just the collapse of Easter Island or the collapse of the Mayans or the collapse of, you know, the Han dynasty, uh, in China 2000 years ago.

But we now have to look at the collapse of the entire human race as a as a holistic whole. So the, to me, Moti, the now let’s get to direct democracy. Direct democracy appears to me the 800 pound gorilla in the room about the whole problem here is capitalism.

Because capitalism is so is, has done you know, it’s as broad as penicillin and MP three players and but it has. But the capitalism, uh, is driven for continual growth, for continual extraction, for continual expansion of markets and for, you know, continual expansion of labor markets and everything else.

And I mean, I haven’t even read Marx and Lenin and I haven’t even read any of any of these books. But to me, that is what is where we somehow if we’re going to have direct democracy, we have got to do something with capitalism. What do you think?

Moti- I entirely agree that the way we see right now, I don’t know if depending what you mean by capitalism. Capitalism originally, the way I understand it, like something like a city state of Athens in Greece that was capitalism.

But that’s was the mom and pop stores like bakery. I have no problem with your bakery across the street belonging to some video. I think what I think the problem is, the problem is talking about it’s not capitalism.

It’s kind of corporate. Gerald Celente talks about corporate fascism, that it’s really the corporations’ big corporation. It’s not. I even remember going back to John Kenneth Galbraith. And the first time I realized that it’s actually familiar with the term oligopoly.

Jeff- Yeah. Oligopoly.

Moti- Oh yeah, thank you. A few corporations are controlling the whole thing, but, yeah, jolly good with it. We have to clearly to find a better system. But I was interested. You said that you met Kurt Vonnegut.

Jeff- Yeah, yeah, yeah. You mentioned Kurt Vonnegut in our first interview and the Cat’s Cradle.

Moti- Yeah.

Jeff- And Ice Nine. And anyway, I recall that I actually saw him. He actually came to Oklahoma City and gave a talk at Oklahoma City University in the early 2000s when we were living there.

And he was such an amazing man and he was such a wonderful speaker. He’s got he had tremendous charisma. And it was very just very interesting that he actually came to Oklahoma City. You know, it’s not exactly a, you know,

Moti- A mecca.

Jeff- Yeah, a Mecca of intellectual thought. And actually, it was actually quite controversial. There were some people that were trying to prevent him from coming. And I didn’t realize at that time just how radical he was in terms of his ideology.

And I think he would probably agree with us that something has got to change the. What really? Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. The baker, the barber, the plumber the, you know, the electrician etc. And I think this gets back to one of the biggest hoaxes in the world is globalization.

You know, I mean, I’m sitting here thinking, you know, I remember reading articles back in the two thousands, how the Dutch, you know, quit growing cut flowers in Holland and started growing them in Kenya and we’re cutting a growing flowers in Kenya and cutting them and putting them in refrigerated containers to fly to Europe to sell.

Moti- Yeah.

Jeff- Yeah ours. You know, in Europe, you know, and I’m just sitting there going, this is insanity. I mean, yeah, this is just so to me that the first thing to do it is we’ve got to scale back globalization, localize and get back to you know, street markets and local markets and think local growth, global grow locally, produced locally and

Moti- Absolutely.

Jeff- Get rid of this the insanities of, you know, globalization because it’s just literally killing the planet.

Moti-Absolutely, I remember when I was when I would just begin to understand what’s going on. I’m getting a book by I called Small is Beautiful. Uh, I forgot the light. He was an Englishman, but small is beautiful. But anyway, the point he was making Hebei we have I remember one of the exactly what you are describing.

We have a truck that’s sending cookies or whatever from California to New York and a truck of cookies from New York to California, the whole system is about you. Earlier you made another comment that that was I would like you to follow up that Papua New Guinea and Jared Diamond. What was, they talking about?

Jeff- we both agree. We both agree that that most world leaders are psychopaths.

Moti-Absolutely.

Jeff- That somehow you have to be in order to govern a country because you have to accept a human suffering, you have to accept death and you have to accept violence and feel no remorse. And that’s the exact definition of a psychopath.

And when you were talking about that, I thought about Jared Diamond’s work in his book, Collapse, about the tribes there and how they how they were able to control the psychopaths and their societies.

And they called it these guys the big man. And what the tribes will do is obviously there are genetically among us some people who are more psychopathic than others and are more driven.

Moti-Absolutely

Jeff- to dominate and to control, etc.

Moti- And lacking conscience

Jeff- and lacking conscience, lack of remorse. Unfortunately, these are the guys that are running our planet.

Moti-Exactly

Jeff- And these in these in these hunter gatherer tribes, which don’t usually get more than a couple of hundred people. And maybe that’s where we need to get direct democracy down to, is that size is that if one of these guys pops up, they all give him a warning. They all talk about it right to his face.

They all get in a circle and they all have, you know, a tribunal or a meeting and say, you are trying to take away our direct democracy. I mean, basically, these tribes in Papua New Guinea are direct democracy. They made they make decisions collectively. Some are more vocal than others.

Some are a little bit more, um, managerial than others. And some are followers. But it is generally equality throughout the group. And as soon as one guy starts showing psychopathic tendencies, they take care of the big man by giving him one, two or three warnings.

And then after that, if he keeps it up, there are two options, they can either banish him from the tribe, kick him out and push him out into the into the jungle by himself, or if he doesn’t go away, they kill him.

And that is how they are able to maintain peace and prosperity within their tribe, is by controlling and weeding out these big men who try to take control of the tribe. And it’s these big men that are the presidents of France and England and the United States and all over the world. That’s what we’re dealing with on a global level.

Moti-Exactly. That’s just really beautiful and that is what we need to do, we need to find a way of kicking out these guys. I remember I saw a movie once, many, many years ago, and it’s about Innervates or Eskimo’s at a time, Veljko, and it’s like that.

And some Europeans come get stranded and they’re living with a tribe, with it, with the people, but very the scarcity of food and each one of them are the locals. They accept them as they want, but then they cross the line and they behave like psychopath and they take for themselves and eventually drive them out of the arm of the tribe. Another example of exactly if that’s the solution for me, that’s a question we have to.

Jeff- Hang on, we got cut off. It’s going to reconnect,

Moti-Hi Jeff. Yeah I can hear you.

Jeff- Modi, can you hear me? OK, great. So were you?

Moti- I can hear you, can you hear me, Jeff?

Jeff- Oh, yeah, I can hear you. I can hear you. I can hear you Moti.

Moti-That say for our listeners, we are trying to actually form a connection between Beijing and Indiana, so and here the quality of the connection is not as good as it could be. So are we. Can we continue?

Jeff- So what’s you are saying?

Moti- What’s my point?

Jeff- Go ahead.

Moti-You are talking about the big man and how the tribesmen were handling it. Yes, that’s the perfect solution. That’s what we need to do. And it’s and I was trying to tell you a story about an Eskimo tribe that had exactly the same manner.

And probably in all of them you cannot have psychopath is totally lack of conscience and irresponsibility a probably something like five percent of the population. And we should realize that what the modern system is giving these people, if we can call them people, tremendous advantage.

If you are in a corporation, if you are willing to stab you, your competitor, if you are willing to kill him even. Well, of course you have. If you are Rockefeller, a Rockefeller is one of the most important guys is descendants. How did he get to power?

I’m sure you know it. He got to power by killing it, by killing his opponent, by about by doing everything it possibly could. All the Russian oligarchs, the people, the billionaires who control Russian oligarchs, they are criminals.

They are not just they are psychopaths, almost all of them men that not want. So the question is and we are going to talk about direct democracy. We should it’s interesting that the Greeks, the ancient Athenians had exactly the same mechanism that you are describing.

They call it, if somebody came around and they didn’t pose a threat to their democracy, they had a mechanism that they are you know, I’m sure you know about it. Scholasticism, they didn’t kill anybody.

They didn’t. They ask him Suneo psychopath, you know, posing a risk to our democracy and will kindly ask you to get lost for ten years. Right. You are familiar with that right Jeff.

Jeff- Yeah. Yeah, they just banish them. They just banish them. Yeah, they banned them can you hear me?

Moti-They banishing for the banish somebody that they didn’t do it very often because it wasn’t necessary, but it was again, they had it’s just like the tribes that Jared Diamond is describing. They had a mechanism of unloading the psychopaths.

And they will just for example, one of the people who got ostracize was the famous historian, utilities. And for ten years he was able to keep his properties everything. But they are the people will get together and said and vote and they exercise it very little.

But so that’s should be we have somehow if we are going to survive and if we are going to live in freedom, which we are losing. If we are going to have some kind of equality of wealth, if we are going if you are going to have to have peace, we have to get rid somehow.

That’s the key question for me. The key. Before we go, that’s the key. We are not going to have direct democracy unless we find a way of ostracizing the Rockefeller’s. How do you call that Ukrainian oligarch now?

That ruling Ukraine Bosanko something we have to find a way, I mean I mean, people are discussing about clearly psychopath and how did he become a billionaire and mean just if you don’t want even to read about it. So unless we find. Jeff?

Jeff- Yes, keep going.

Moti-Unless we find a way out somehow, and that’s that a talk for another, but that’s the key challenge to humanity, how they 95 percent of us are not psychopaths. How do we how do we eliminate these people? Because if we can and if we don’t, then it’s the end.

Jeff- Or were doomed. You know, you mentioned

Moti-You wanted also to talk about to say something about?

Jeff- Hello, Moti.

Moti-Yes, I’m still here, I wanted to ask you,

Jeff- Go ahead.

Moti- I wanted to ask if you wanted to say something before we move on to direct democracy, if you wanted to say something about oil and nuclear accidents, you’re talking about Vasilia, we talk privately about the Cuban missile crisis in Vasilia. You wanted to make.

Jeff- I wanted to absolutely the but I do want to point out that not only is it politicians, but it’s CEOs and presidents and COOs and CFOs of corporations who are also psychopaths because, you know, corporations gleefully kill people, maim people, poison people, and by the millions. And so it’s not only a political problem, but it’s a, uh, a problem with, uh, with our economic system to. Are you still there, Modi?

Moti- Absolutely. I mean, actually,

Jeff- And so,

Moti- yeah, I didn’t me

Jeff- that I did not know that Cincinnati’s was actually ostracize as pretty amazing.

Moti- Yeah, yeah, and that’s why, according to some people, is, you know, we have that’s another thing that I think about it. So think about the Athenians that we know. We know about Plato.

Right, are they the people who came after they made sure to maintain the writings of Plato. But Plato was an enemy of the open society. He was if you read Republic, it’s actually was an advocate of totalitarianism.

Jeff- A dictatorship.

Moti- Yeah, yeah. Aristotle, the people, the genuine Democrats. We know them because of the achievements in other people, for example, Democritus. And it’s not an incident that his name is Democritus because it’s parents

Jeff- Its parents by mockers.

Moti- Yeah, they believe in democracy. But the market is we know about it because of the atomic theory. We know that he was a great scientist, but we are not old and there is writings and all there were just as many, so we history is selectively favoring one type.

And also, I wanted to say that I totally agree with you that actually what we have now, if you talk about government, we don’t have government what we have what we have the five hundred what is it, four hundred sixty five thousand sixty five congressmen in the United States. It’s just now that, totally controlled by the corporations. So it’s really

Jeff- absolutely

Moti- It’s really old. So that’s where the power lies now. And especially the banks, especially the big bankers are controlling. So we really are living under a corporate state. Obama,

Jeff- Yeah I know.

Moti- you know, my opinion is totally powerless if we try to I don’t think he has the intelligence to try anything about Bush. I mean, that’s just not I like the Russian counterparts or Chinese got about intelligent men. These are people are not. But they are not the government.

The government is intelligent and they are the corporate people who control, obviously, for example, even going back to, I think, FDR, Roosevelt, he said in a private label, I’m sure you are familiar with that quote is saying to some you and I know that I forgot exactly the wording, but you and I know that Wall Street have been in charge of controls, everything but everything since the days. And that’s it since the day of Andrew Jackson.

Jeff- Yeah, exactly what’s the big bang?

Moti- Yeah, that’s obvious man,

Jeff- Try to take down the banks.

Moti- Yeah, we have a situation where we are it’s a country for by and of the bankers and corporations. And these people get somebody like what’s his name that the guy from JP Morgan. How do you get to the top? You’ve got to be almost a psychopath.

Jeff- Yeah, yeah, killing, maiming and destroying lives,

Moti- Yeah, and destroying life and not caring. And I mean, look, I mean, it’s everywhere. Look what’s happening to the Palestinians. Look, I mean, the genocide. Look, the Iraqi people now that they are not it’s not enough what they are doing in Iraq, Syria and in Palestine, they are now starting another war and they are now going to

Jeff- in Yemen,

Moti- Yemen, they’re going to turn and they have they have absolutely no scruples. You’re talking about the nuclear situation there. I mean, they’re out of their minds. They’re the Clarkie the three minutes to midnight. And they didn’t stop them. They think, you know, they are willing so many accidents almost happen. They are willing to come in. And for what? That’s the only explanation.

Jeff- Yeah.

Moti- They are power hungry.

Jeff- Yeah, go ahead. What I want to say is people don’t realize that Russia, that Russia and the United States still have thousands of nuclear warheads. And I wanted to point out that thanks to a couple of brave and courageous Russian soldiers, we actually avoided nuclear oblivion during the Cuban missile crisis.

A soldier by the name of a silly R Karpov, he actually declined to pull the trigger to send an atomic rocket, atomic bomb rocket to the United States because he thought that the warning that he was getting was false. And it turned out to be true.

But he was according to protocol, he was supposed to actually pull the trigger, which would have definitely destroyed the planet. And then a guy by the name of Stanislav Petrov in nineteen eighty three again.

Another false warning that there were rockets coming in from the United States and that he again declined to pull the trigger, and it’s amazing to think that the entire fate of humanity.

You know, was actually decided by the, you know, the cool wits of two of two very you know, just normal human beings who happen to do the right thing. But what if they hadn’t? That’s and we’re sitting on thousands of these.

I mean, literally thousands of these are were installed across the United States on bombers and, you know, tactical bombers. And we’ve just gone from, you know, twenty five thousand warheads each, but we’re still down to about ten thousand each. I mean, it’s enough to, you know, blow up the entire solar system.

Moti- No, absolutely, and I want just to mention to add to what are saying that that was not the only new accident just a couple of days ago, the newspaper in Japan. I don’t know if you read it, two guys were sitting, sitting and they got an order to send one nuclear missile to Russia and three probably to China.

And they declined again, declined to do it. There are many other incidents. There were Churchill wanted to tell you the last time you wanted to bomb,

Jeff- you tell he wanted to bomb Russia

Moti- Russia mecaltho the great general and I, being cynical and sarcastic, wanted he wanted to bomb to create a dead zone during the Korean War and to bomb 30 nuclear bombs in China. The story goes on and on.

There is no I mean, eventually what happens if and are other accidents near misses? There are several well-known documented missiles. We cannot be lucky forever. Eventually, somebody some guy will not have the courage of Vasilios people and

Jeff- To say no

Moti- he will know if he’ll push the button and what happened there during the Cuban missile crisis. If you read Bobby Kennedy 13 days.

Jeff- No.

Moti- Well, it is I mean, those generals now we talk about Dr. Strangelove. These guys, they wanted to go the world. They wanted to push that to push it back. I mean, well.

Jeff- Curtis LeMay, Curtis LeMay, who ironically ended up being George Wallace’s vice presidential candidate, you know, and I think it was at 1968, he was the guy in Europe that developed the, um, the saturation bombing of the German cities and, uh, you know, to literally torch them.

They took that model to Japan and too literally, you know, fire, burn to fire, burn Japanese cities. And then that guy went on over to use the same bombing technique in Vietnam to carpet bomb Vietnam and kill three million people during the Southeast Asian War.

So these guys yeah, there’s the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They want the Bay of Pigs was supposed to be a false flag to enable the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They didn’t want to just bomb Cuba. They wanted to nuke they wanted to vaporize Cuba. I mean, they literally wanted to send a rain of atomic bombs on to Cuba.

And that’s one of the reasons that JFK, uh, was assassinated by his own government, is because they were livid, absolutely livid. And we have a few that he refused a nuclear bomb, Cuba.

Moti- And we have to look at the record of these people. They are the ones who annihilated Hiroshima and Nagasaki totally, totally needlessly just to scare the Russians away. They are the ones I was reading a few days ago.

I forgot an article about the bombing of talking about Kurt Vonnegut. He was in a city that was totally destroyed. What would they do with him?

Jeff- A hundred thousand people, hundred and thirty thousand and something like that. And they are literally vaporize during bombing. Go ahead,

Moti- It’s totally unnecessary. The biggest holocaust in human history, according to the way the Bukola American Holocaust and according to him, the biggest Holocaust was against the Native Americans in North America, 20 million people dead in a most horrible.

Jeff- Absolutely.

Moti- So these people have a record of and another part of the equation. And I’m here. I’m out of my league. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but a lot of people are saying that they have underground cities, for example, until the Denver airport, that it’s a city below, that they are very underground city in next to Washington, D.C.

So maybe for me, it’s very, very concerning because maybe they think that they will just go into the bunker, destroy the world and then come out after five years and everything will be OK.

Because their behavior is so strange, it’s so irresponsible, risking not only their family, which is also but that’s long ago, but risking a nuclear an all-out nuclear war. They think that Russia is Yemen or Russia is Palestine. It’s has tolerance. And it has nuclear delivery.

And even some scientists are even saying that if you destroy Russia totally, that the nuclear winter will eventually take over the United States, too. But yet they can.

Jeff- Well, the whole the whole planet. Moti, I wrote a wonderful article that Paul Craig Roberts put on his website as an expert on nuclear war. And he laid it out. He said that it will not take it will not take thousands of bombs to destroy humanity. It would only take about a few dozen.

And even if this this whole idea of first strikes, if the United States is going to be the first one to, you know, to do to land their bombs on Russia, even if they were able to do that, let’s say they were able to take out the Twin Cities, the ten largest cities in Russia.

Moti- Yes,

Jeff- We will go and we will go with because remember, these bombs are not 25000 kiloton bombs like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These are megaton, you know, multi, multi megaton bombs that are exponentially larger than what was needlessly used in Japan. One of these bombs is equal to, you know, 50 or 100 Hiroshima’s. And so,

Moti- yes,

Jeff- even if they were able to get the ten biggest cities in Russia, we’re all going to die anyway because of nuclear winter. We will literally destroy we will food production will stop, photosynthesis will stop around the planet. And we will literally go into, like, you know, Cormac McCarthy’s book, you know, The Road. If you ever saw that, saw that movie or read that book, you know, about sort of Holocaust,

Moti- Which one?

Jeff- Cormac McCarthy’s book, The Road. It was made into a movie with Viggo Mortensen. I highly recommend it anyway to post Holocaust. It’s a post Holocaust hellhole where nothing is growing,

Moti- Yeah.

Jeff- Agriculture has ceased and the few remaining survivors are living are able to survive through cannibalism. And that’s what we’ll have even if the United States succeeds in their first strike yet because we will literally destroy photosynthesis and we will destroy crop production and the whole thing comes tumbling down.

Moti- Yeah, I, I’m not another book, by the way, that the one that I remember many, many years ago on the beach where the.

Jeff- Oh yeah, yeah,

Moti- You remembered that?

Jeff- in Australia.

Moti- In Australia and how they a cloud of cesium, a radioactive system, whatever and half-life. So I forgot maybe a few month or maybe a couple of youth is moving towards them and they know that it’s coming.

I don’t know exactly, you know, deploy ability, maybe, maybe some life maybe in my life can survive. And maybe if they go underground for two years and then coming out, remember, if they do have the underground bunker and if they are well equipped.

Jeff- But Moti they have the underground bunkers, one the, you know, then of course, 9/11 was a gigantic false flag and one of the, one of the um things that they tested with 9/11 was what the United States has called has called continuation of government COG.

Moti- Yes. Yes.

Jeff- They wanted to test continuation of government. That was one of the reasons besides, you know, starting the World War against Muslims around the planet, they wanted to test continuation of government. They went into that bunker.

Moti- Yeah

Jeff- You know, Dick Cheney went into that bunker outside of Washington, DC.

Moti- What did this called Mant? Do you remember that?

Jeff- Yeah, yeah, yeah it’s Mant something, yeah, exactly. You’re right. And I’m sure they have one in Denver.

Moti- Yeah

Jeff- I am sure they have probably two or three. And yes, these guys are willing to destroy humanity, literally wipe out the human race, hide out with their, you know, with their Nassau, with their Nassau meals, uh, you know, four to five years and come out and, you know, and live with the cockroaches that have survived.

Moti- Now, it’s entirely possible I wouldn’t have put it past them, that maybe that the most worrisome thing, maybe that’s a plan. We don’t know what that.

Jeff- Yeah, yeah, exactly, I don’t know.

Moti- I mean, it’s so bad, it’s so unbelievable that that that’s what we have to live under.

Jeff- Well, Moti, we haven’t gotten any closer to solving the world’s problems with direct democracy, how do we get there? That how do we bring you know, that’s the whole that’s the key.

By the way, I wanted to ask you, you know a lot more about this than I do. And we know that in Papua New Guinea, most of the hunter gatherer tribes were, you know, anywhere between 50 and a couple of hundred people. And those were direct democracy where they were able to get rid of the big man.

Moti- Yes,

Jeff- The psychopath’s, what was the size of the direct democracies in ancient Greece?

Moti- As in Greece, they at the Athens the city of Athens had about the population with about 40000. So that is manageable. You can even go the one successful one success when I was going to talk about later.

But the one successful place so far, unlike Greece that these caving in but the one successful place where the bankers and their shenanigans were resisted, of course, is the island of Iceland. Right. And the nation.

Jeff- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They are picking out of hell.

Moti- And I think I don’t quote me on it, but I think the population of Iceland needs something like three hundred thousand. But of course the people there are highly literate and they were able to.

And again, it shows you it was going to be one of my examples of the power of direct democracy. They were the bankers, of course, wanted to take over and wanted them to enslave the people of Iceland,

Jeff- like they’re like they’re doing in Greece. Yeah. What’s the vote today let’s hope they vote.

Moti- No, I just read an article about it so they’re afraid of the vote. But in Iceland, what they did, the key was exactly. Greece is trying to repeat it. But Greece, I’m not sure. But some people, people like Anglo and James Petra’s said that that the Greek government is really a phony government.

I’m not it’s not my opinion. I don’t know what’s going on. And they are saying that in that case, for example, that the finance minister is actually an Australian citizen right there in the United States, vote in Australia for a long time.

So they are already sold out. But to go back to go back to say to go back to the question of what’s society, it seems that three hundred thousand, if you have a liberal population, you can still do it. Athens something like forty thousand.

So it’s absolutely true. If we are going to have if we are going to have direct democracy, it one way would be to decentralize and maybe to keep if you’re talking about the United States or France or China is to keep the JP Leonard government, but with minimum powers and to have to divide the country, the states artificially into small entities.

Maybe following the Greek example, it can be done. But even if you wanted to keep the United States as a whole, we have the technology I was just reading the other day. I was reading an article, a book by the philosopher John Stuart Mill writing in 1896.

Jeff- Oh yeah, yeah I read in one of the social.

Moti- He has a book, Considerations of Representative Democracy. And he lists the many, many reasons why direct democracy, where the people govern themselves, is the best system. So we have many, many reasons to believe.

And we can, what I was hoping to do is maybe just give because most people first of all, so we would elect not to move to the question of direct democracy. Are we ready for that?

Jeff- Yeah. What I what I’d like I would like to point out, though, is that I think you have to discount the size of Iceland because it is an island.

Moti- Yes

Jeff- And I’ve always speculated that the only reason the Cuban revolution, you know, the communist revolution there and the socialist revolution survived, has survived since 1959. And that it has not been subsumed by West, by Western colonialists is because it is an island.

I mean islands, you know, England was, you know, invaded early on. But, you know, even Hitler, you know, paused about tried to invade England. And so, you know, islands of you. In this buffer from outside influence, and I think that Iceland being an island, even though they are literate and everything.

If Iceland were connected to Norway, I don’t know if they could have done it just because there’s something about that land bridge that just makes it very easy for, you know, enemies of the state to, you know, penetrate and bring down the system.

Moti- I agree. Iceland just you know great. And they have that protection also in both cases, Iceland and Cuba. You mentioned Cuba. I mean, we know it’s been documented that the CIA tried to kill Castro for at least 100 times.

Jeff- 50 times.

Moti- I mean, every take. And they would have if they could, they would have killed the president. What happened in Iceland is they had a president who said, no, I’m not going to transfer the wealth of my people to the to the English Mancos without asking my people if they feel like saving lives, donating the Shandong Rockefeller families their money to get out of China once and twice, twice.

And they would have if it weren’t an island, the police would have killed him. I think that one explanation, what’s going on in Greece, they remember the past. Remember that the CIA and the dictatorship there. Since nineteen forty five, Greece was one of the places where the CIA was extremely active. I remember being in Greece in the 60s and there was fear on the faces of the people because they had a Honda that so they remember the Greece. They even if they are

Jeff- Fascist hunters.

Moti- Yeah. You’ve got to think for yourself. You know, if you know about Castro, if you know about Lumumba, if you know about the entire Kennedy clan, if you know that John Lennon

Jeff- had been wiped out,

Moti- That you know that they are they can people if you defy them, if you defy the bankers, they will kill you and organize a cultural revolution or whatever. So it’s not that simple and an absolute right that Iceland, because it’s a homogeneous society and because it’s in Iceland.

And Iceland and they have a protection in Cuba also because another element another element is that you have to understand who you’re up against. And Castro, Fidel Castro was it’s all happen if my memory is not deceiving me. He was present in Guatemala when the CIA organized the

Jeff- Arbenz.

Moti- Exactly. And he was so Castro had a firsthand experience with American fascism. He knew that these guys he knew he was clever. He was any kind of man. He knew that these people, whatever they say, the movies, the propaganda and The New York Times, it’s nothing.

You know, the Dow just as vicious as anybody, the devil that the people, the bankers, War child, the people who control, really control. They are willing to do anything for money and for power. So he had no illusions. And he was he was prepared.

You had the intelligence and the experience to anticipate. And also and that’s a little bit out of the way. But also, he was lucky enough for the Cuban missile crisis and he had the agreement between the Russians and Khrushchev and Kennedy. Well, OK, we’ll get out. But you are not going to topple the Cuban revolution so.

Jeff- Yeah, yeah exactly.

Moti- A combination of factors that say. But to go back to the democracy. Yeah, I agree with you. They know with we can have the best would be totally decentralized. But if people do not want to break it up, we have the technology now, at least for a referendum. OK, they want to go to Iraq, let ask them.

They want to they want to have they don’t go pesticide like the Monsanto pesticide. Let’s ask us. And for example, you put every decision, do we want it? It should be automatic that the government the point of direct democracy, one of the points that the Excellency is that the government is powerless.

It’s every decision, the Greeks, the Athenians, they all get up once a month. So I don’t know exactly and be in a place called not the Acropolis near the Acropolis. There was a place called I don’t know how to pronounce it Panyx?

And that’s where they will get together and tell. Are people and they would vote on anything that the felt lady, that is the democracy and other aspects of direct democracy. We have a judicial system, but the, who is the wisdom, the guy or the lady who is really controlling what’s happening in a courtroom? It’s the judge. I’ve been I’ve been on the jury.

Jeff- Oh no.

Moti- He served on a jury. Well, I did I twice in my wife, Donna, also have been a couple of times, and the judge is tremendous influence on what’s going on. Well, the Greeks.

Jeff- yeah absolutely.

Moti- They had a remedy for that. They knew that what a judge is an agent of the bankers, really, after everything so.

Jeff- Yeah, yeah.

Moti- The people it was a judge free trial. You, for example, they the trial, like you said, you’re a jury trial,

Jeff- a jury trial with no judge.

Moti- There was the head of a jury and you feel it wasn’t what we have. It’s better than Argentina doesn’t even have jury. But in the United States, the idea. But the judge is in charge. If you want a democracy, you have the most famous trial. And, of course, it’s written by the record of the trial by an enemy of democracy.

So they the people are made to look bad. That’s a trial of the philosopher Tsangarides but if you remember in the apology of Socrates or in Greek apology, if you if you remember the trial, if you remember when you read about it now, five hundred Athenians 500 is I don’t know, five percent of population.

They are sitting there, no judge. And they are the ones who have to decide what to do with that renegade Socrates was I like what they are telling you, it was a mockery of democracy. No, he wasn’t. He was closely associated with the tyranny.

He was maybe personally not. But he was most of his students were the people who betrayed Athens in its war against. That’s why they put him on trial, because he was Alcibiades, for example, Curtius, the tinman of Athens.

He was one of his one of his close associates. But anyway, the point is that another example of what the democracy that’s what democracy is. Or I’ll give you another example. In the United States, which is not a democracy, democracy means people, all the people power to the people, as John Lennon put it, power to the people.

The people are sovereign. As John Miller, one of the John Stuart Mill, one of the, people are sovereign. So in the United States. They are telling us the democracy. But it’s not one example if anybody has any doubts besides everything else besides the sunshine, Byberry, this assassination, beside the information that they could brainwash our mind.

But if anybody has any doubts I used in my classes, I used to do to carry out that experiment, I would have a plate and I would tell them a story. I thought a story about Mr. David Rockefeller, what happened?

And I tell them that you just sent a letter to Wayne State University and ask us to act as agents and I would do it in the beginning. So they didn’t know me and they thought that I was telling them the truth. I’ll tell I’ll tell them.

OK, David Rockefeller, I wrote a letter to my university, and he asks him for his help. What happened? He has only forty nine yards or either everything. Rothchard has fifty and OK. And what he needs, he just cannot afford the fifty and he needs the people’s help. So I’m going to pass and I’m serious about it and I’m really expecting you to help me out. And I’m going to pass a plate just like they do in church.

And I ask you to from the bottom of my heart to put some to donate for his fifty yard and my students look at me, first of all, as if I was out of my mind and that they fed up and now passed the plate and nobody just imagine it. Nobody donated as much as one Nicole to the Rockefeller Fund,

Jeff- Yeah,

Moti- OK, then then I’ll present them with the moral of the story. And I tell them, of course, it was really the moral of the story is if you take the United States as a whole, think about it. 50 percent of the people I don’t know, correct me if I’m mistaken, you know, about this statistic, but as far as I can remember, 50 percent of the people have only one percent of the world.

When Reagan came to power, that was not good enough for him. He asked us to do exactly that to they call it a tax cut to the rich. That’s what all presidents since Reagan have been doing. They took money from you and I think especially from poor people and gave it to the Rockefeller. That’s what’s happening now,

Jeff- Yeah, of course.

Moti- And they are telling us that a democracy that is not a democracy, that’s cannot it’s inconceivable in a democracy that 50 percent, let’s say we’re an island of 100 people, let’s say 100 people, 50 of them, they one person owns 40 percent of the island and the world and 50 of them, 50 of them on only one percent of the island.

That’s exactly the situation. The cockroach of David Rockefeller, I think, better than they do. And let’s imagine how they get together on the on the on the next with the Acropolis over there. And they are looking at, OK, we can vote. What is democracy means we can do whatever we want. The first thing that they will do,

Jeff- yeah,

Moti- Hey let’s divide the world, if not equally but it’s not fair, that the cockroaches of Mr. Rockefeller Concordia’s

Jeff- better than that.

Moti- Better that they do better than my children. What if that’s the democracy? Of course it’s not a democracy. So that’s what happening if we do in human history that what of course, other it’s not just it’s not fair. It’s not it’s obscene.

That kind of that we have people dying of starvation, on one hand, people living in the street. And that guy, it’s not what do you do with billions? The only thing you can do with billions of dollars is corrupt.

The so it’s another example that the only Greece. Of course, they. Yeah. That when they went to war, the rich people have to provide for the trials. Not the poor people. Poor people.

Jeff- Yeah

Moti- I assume you and there are many, many aspects. And the reason, there are many reasons why we have been like everything else, we have been collectively brainwashed against real it’s not even its real democracy.

Jeff- We’ve been we’ve been we’ve been brainwashed against our own interests,

Moti- I guess our interests. And we’ve been brainwashed to believe that from the cradle they are talking about mob rule. But if you look at Athen, if you look at the Papua New Guinea, it’s the opposite of mob rule. It’s working very well.

So that’s one why people when you talk to them and most people that they are kind of and so maybe let me cover what I feel about the psychological. It’s why psychologically it’s so people are so reluctant to accept. One of them is the propaganda system.

We have been we have been told over and over again it doesn’t work, but it’s not true. The second one, because he’s historically and philosophically, it’s we have many good reasons to believe that it does work.

The second reason why so many people are reluctant to accept to accept the fact that real democracy is the best political system. And it’s certainly better than the joke we have now. If they are the opposition of intellectuals and I mention Plato, Plato was an enemy of democracy.

All you citizens, for example, in many, many what they’ve done for us throughout the ages, they elevated somebody like the philosopher Hegel. He was an enemy of democracy, though. They selectively, selectively throughout the ages. They elevated the people were not friends of democracy and suppressed the real.

Look at the American Revolution. OK, you have on one hand you have Washington, the richest man at a time Denigrating Hebei was for his style, for a rich man. He was pretty decent. But so we have a state of Washington where we have Washington

Jeff- Washington, D.C.

Moti- Washington, D.C., but who have Thomas Paine, the greatest Democrat,

Jeff- Yeah, yeah of course.

Moti- Even Franklin, Franklin has done much more, according to most. The military historian George Washington was really not a very good general. Militarily speaking, it was Lafayette that actually won the war. But forget about that a second.

So if Lafayette won the war, the man who convinced the French to have the America is really the man who should get the credit. It’s Benjamin Franklin. But we don’t have cities because Benjamin Franklin was more a genuine Democrat, Thomas Paine, so selectively throughout history, there have been a concerted effort by the oligarchs in all ages to make light of the potential, because that’s the greatest the biggest enemies to the Rockefeller’s is direct democracy.

Once you and I and our fellow citizens. Assume control. Forget even it’s too small, size will be better, but we have the technology now. If they ask us every time they’ll say, OK, hundred thousand people can put whatever we want.

Or how about. Think of about it. How about we just say that you cannot have more than ten million dollars? I think it’s a great idea that nobody should be allowed to have them. You know, nobody should be allowed to grow up. That should stop.

How do they control it? They control by bribing a preselecting our president right now. Really. I mean, this is a joke at our expense. Clinton and Bush another time. Are they kidding us? But how do they do it? Because they have so much money. So if we have. If we could have despite the propaganda, if we could have direct democracy, things will be extremely different.

Jeff- One of the yeah, and something’s got to change because, you know, you talked about even in the United States, remember last year Vermont voted to put a genetically modified organism labels on all GMO food products in Vermont.

Moti- Exactly.

Jeff- And what happens? The corporations, the Monsanto’s and everybody else and all the food processors come in, spend millions and millions and millions of dollars, you know, paying high priced lawyers to clean up the judicial system. And it will take 20 years for the decision to be made. And in the meantime, they get to continue to sell GMO unlabeled in Vermont.

Moti- Exactly. Oh, well, look how scandalized of the bankers. They call it the troika. It’s really private banker was standing behind all this. Look how scandalizes that the Greek democracy, the big Greek of all places, the bailout of the market or one of the places we spoke on. That they have the gall of asking the Greek people.

What opinion do they want or not want? But let me give you the idea of the democracy, I wanted to talk about something a little bit apart from politics, because I think direct democracy does not only apply and it’s not only attractive for but for organizations.

I think we should in fact stories, I think we should have the market tools. In school everywhere, let me give you an example that captures that captured the head. And it’s coming from music. According to some people, the greatest orchestra. OK, stop talking about music. The greatest classical orchestra in the world. Do you have an opinion about it? What? Do you have a favorite?

Jeff- No, no, I love listening to classical music, but I and I know, you know, there’s Berlin and there’s Moscow.

Moti- Stop right now. The first one you mentioned and we didn’t work it out. It just you just mentioned it yourself. The first orchestra you mentioned was the Berlin Philharmonic, now what is unique about the Berlin Philharmonic?

It is direct democracy. It is it is a direct democracy. It’s somebody says, I’m going to quote to you because I want it’s so important for people to realize that they get to be self-empowered and realize that democracy means the real democracy direct is just really not necessary.

Democracy, not the joke that we have, but how it is here. Here’s one commentator I’m going to. Quote to you a few of his words, first of all, he says, the Berlin Philharmonic, that democratically government is the coolest band in the world and he said and I’m quoting When the Berlin Philharmonic was created in 1882, it’s 52 musicians decided to do business differently.

They wanted a democratic system that not only involved the musicians, but empowered them as well. It is the musicians who manage themselves from scheduling concerts to making two arrangements or handling delicate personal matters.

The audition process is totally inclusive, and he goes on to say, the last time I saw the Berlin Philharmonic, I thought it was the greatest orchestra I’d ever heard. I felt that the time that the time before to and the secret, it has to be.

The secret again, when people govern themselves, people govern themselves is they think of it. If I am part of a cooperative, like a kibbutz or like if I am part, I feel I’m not working. If I work in a factory for GM while playing, I have a lot of musician friends and alienated now alienated in university.

A lot of us, the academics, the professors, the university, feel alienated. Why, yes, we have a certain degree of freedom. But if people in charge are. The people in charge are the administrators, the people who are in control or the politicians.

Jeff- Yeah

Moti- Just imagine that you can we can we could have something like this. But the Philharmonic. So the point is that the direct democracy is just it’s so simple. It so it works so well. If you look at hunter gatherers, our ancestors, they were happier than we are. They were happier,

Jeff- Absolutely

Moti- because they were most of them, the Athenians, if you ask me where would I rather be born, be a part of the, I certainly if let’s say some place up there in the sky, you’re given a choice. Where would you I would rather well.

I like reading to Papua New Guinea would not suit me because I like also the intellectual life and Ulfkotte, which was wonderful in some ways superior today to the Athenian democracy. But for me, if you had to ask me and absolutely, of course, now disadvantages. I mean, women were not allowed to participate. They had slavery. But of course, we could changes it. We can make it all encompassing.

Jeff- Yeah

Moti- I’ll be like democracy winning everyone. So if you ask me where would I, of course, I would prefer to do without any condition, without cowls, without whatever it is that we have. But it’s not superficial things. It’s the community, the creativity, the self-sufficiency economically each Athenian household then.

So that printing of money, OK, here we have they control us partially, but we need money well in Athens, It wasn’t the bank, the so-called central bank of the Shandong, the Rockefeller, the printing of money and controlling us.

But over there it was the state created money. And it wasn’t just fake green paper, but it was civil because they had civil mine. So I would certain chosen so to me, kind of to conclude that part of our discussion.

To me, the ideal of direct democracy and the means to do it is the proper way you approach somehow. And that’s complicated. That’s the biggest challenge. Somehow we’ve got to get rid of the psychopath. We’ve got to find some way of unloading it.

We are a Boxy that maybe we are many and there are few that got to be away, I think. I hope not. Then it’s over. But they’ve got to be a way of somehow maybe by doing what they’re doing, you know, just trying to appeal to people. But maybe it’s just.

Jeff- One of the one of the one of the ways remembers, I sent you that article, the link, and I’ll put it on the Website. It was in The Guardian. It came out on Labor Day May 1st this year about how of employees of companies around the world that have been shut down by the greedy owners, too, because they can make money elsewhere or they can do better doing something else and leaving these people unemployed and penniless, they’re taking over.

They’re taking over their businesses. They’re literally going in and assuming control of these businesses that were going out of business or actually went out of business. And so they created cooperatives and they had some wonderful examples. They had Turkey. They had, uh, they had Greece. They had France. They had Spain. They had Argentina.

Moti- Yeah.

Jeff- That’s actually was a huge business there in oil, oil storage or petroleum storage. And that’s now employee owned. And so that was a very to that that article gave me a lot of hope. And apparently Spain and France are at the vanguard of this. Um, Spain, about 75 companies a year are being taken over by their employees and in France, a few dozen each year.

So maybe this is a model also that because we got to eat, we’ve got to put clothes on our back and we’ve got to put a roof over our heads and we’ve got to educate ourselves. And so and it does take money. We’ve got it. We’ve got to make something. We’ve got to do something to, uh.

And of course, what I love about the article is every one of these localize they were, you know, taking care of their local community first. And I think the in Greece, they started to do some exporting some of their products into Europe.

But the number one concern was to, you know, think locally and provide a life for themselves. So that’s also maybe a possibility on the economic side of these employee stock ownership you know plans or, you know, co-ops, along with some sort of democratic political system on a local level.

Moti- I hope you’re right and it’s possible, but I don’t I think we have, uh, many of us have a tendency to underestimate our enemies. They are very clever and they have been if you look at our lifetime, they’ve been winning for the long.

Let me go back to Greece and because that’s for me, that’s the solution. What happened there? There was the Peloponnesian War. It lasted 30 years and at the end, the Spartans, the totalitarian Sparta S01, that’s the way according to Capapolan that’s the way. And that’s it.

That’s the way we are led to believe that the Spartans won. But that’s not at all what happened after the war. The Spartans, just like the Americans, now establish a horrible dictatorship. Plato’s uncle was curious, well, the head of the dictatorship.

And they will they proceeded to decimate the Athenian population. And in the Athenians, there were people who always deliberately and they had their choice. They could try to somehow work at the time, but they said no.

They believe with preclears was one of their leaders, that the only way that you can protect yourself from tyrants is to give them a beat of their own medicine revolution. Thomas Jefferson to I’m sure you’re familiar with the quote that.

Jeff- Oh, absolutely.

Moti- The Tree of Liberty. It says, and I’m paraphrasing, he doesn’t remember exactly must be nurtured from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots, and I believe so. But to go back to Greece, OK, so they started the small group.

And unless you really made it your business of studying Greek history, you don’t even know the names of the heroes. They started with the small group and they started this one place. And within eight months, within eight months, the reconquered Athens, they reestablish the democracy.

And to the point well and to the point where Athens and the democracy and the entire Greek will believe that it was invincible and they stayed in power, the democracy for decades until Alexander the Dictator or the Great Dictator Alexander, which is the great I forget about it, miscalled the great.

He was no great at all. He was a parricide. He was a dictator, and he was power hungry. You belong to the same group of people that are now. That’s how they I refused to call integrated with Alexander in my book, The Little Boy. Well, he was he started by killing, most likely killing his own father. Just imagine. And then started by.

Jeff- Yeah,

Moti- it was what so many of conquering the whole world you see I don’t remembered it what’s driving it? What’s the matter with this guy? But he is the one who will make it many decades where the democracy survives.

Its survival because the people aspergillosis, you want freedom, you’ve got to be willing freedom takes or Jefferson. So I think maybe it will work. But I’ve seen you know, I’ve studied the history of these people for centuries. They are willing to do anything.

They have a plan and they are bent on achieving total control of control, enslaving us, enslaving us all because of what is ours, having perpetual war will save the 1984. And it could be and for me for me, I know it’s not palatable, but I don’t see any way, I feel want to get that, the goal is direct democracy.

But I’m not going to do it. They will stop every time anybody tries to do something like that, like in Iceland or Greece, the people voted. They are going to they are going to win in Greece one way or the other. They will bribe the politicians.

Jeff- Well, Greece has never been out of out of the control of the CIA since World War Two, that they you know, the Gladio Army, the secret army, you know, the NATO secret armies, Gladio,

Moti- Exactly

Jeff- you know it that referendum passes, I will pass out. I mean, I don’t think it’ll happen. I think they will it’s going to be rigged no matter what.

Moti- Exactly. So I don’t think same

Jeff- but I think it’s the greatest day of freedom since World War Two.

Moti- Yeah, I agree with you, I agree with you entirely, but it shows you the strength and they all stood and are clever, these people out, that they don’t have a conscience, but they do have a plan and they are intelligent.

And I think the only way, tragically, that is the tragedy of our contemporary era that it’s sooner or later and I hope we’ll have to give them to fight back. I don’t see. I don’t see. OK, these are experiments of direct democracy in Iraq.

Theirs’s kids are dying in Iceland, but these are isolated. I remember I remember reading a long time ago book by Huxley Island. And you can you can do everything right away, but eventually come and destroy you, and the only way for me, the only way we have to figure out a way how to go to the city of London, the little house somehow to this about Wall Street, how somehow to eliminate the power over us.

And I don’t right now, everything else seems to be failing. And I tragically and I don’t want to do it, and I don’t know if it can be done either, but the only way out of this seize fighting back.

Jeff- Yeah, well, it was, to paraphrase Mao Zedong China’s leader, after liberation in nineteen forty nine, revolution or change comes, you know, from the barrel of a gun. And unfortunately, that’s what history shows time and time again.

The only way that effective change happens tyrants is revolution. As you say, you just people have to just you know, that’s the one thing they fear. And that may be, you know, that may you know, with all due respect to Mahatma Gandhi and all due respect to Martin Luther King Jr., who were for peaceful. You know, peaceful resistance, which I think has a very, very important role to play, but they were both shot.

Moti- Exactly.

Jeff- They both got assassinated by the state.

Moti- They’re both and many others were shot by the state. So you can’t do you can’t I they quote somebody said to Martin Luther King, this not nonviolence, violent business is going to kill you. And that’s exactly what happened. Many, many you could go all the way to Jesus of Nazareth. He also tried.

Jeff- He was also shy and he was also assassinated.

Moti- They’re willing to go to Kennedy and so many so many others. Now what how can you fight somebody with willing to kill his peaceful opponents, to occupy even something as innocuous as they occupy? There were documents showing that somebody, the FBI would not tell us who it is.

It’s following them, but somebody was trying would had a plan of assassinating the Occupy leader. So how can you how can you forget about the Black Panthers, for example? How many of them died? Union activists, how many Joe Hill and Big Bill Haywood, how many of them?

Jeff- Malcolm Max.

Moti- Malcolm Max. I think about somebody as gentlemanly as Eugene Debs. They put him in prison. OK, in this case, I don’t they didn’t kill him, but it’s almost the same thing. They put him in prison because he was opposed to a war that was fought for the child, a World War One. United had absolutely no business.

And the American people, until the propaganda machine got going, there were supposedly the. So when you are faced with somebody who is willing to do anything. Look at look at what they’ve done to Iraq. I mean, the genocide totally.

Everybody knows that all the excuses that they use will just straight out lies. And if somebody I mean, my question is to talk to everybody, to those of us who are aware of what’s going on, we care about humanity, of care about children while dying needlessly. At what point, do we do say basta, we are not going to accept.

Jeff-Enough is enough.

Moti- Enough is enough. Two million Iraqis are not two million. We didn’t do anything. They are just a victim of a two million Iraqis. How many Syrians, how many Americans, how many Americans are sitting in prison because they didn’t smoke a little a little grass.

Jeff- Marijuana

Moti- And the failing justice system is at a point where I have to I’m voting for me. That’s only I don’t know how to exactly go about it, but I think it’s something that we need to think about because we have the future of the humanity.

Jeff- of the human race

Moti- Of the human race at stake.

Jeff- Well, Moti, I don’t know if we solved any of the world’s problems that we sure had a good time and a fascinating and stimulating time talking about it. This has been a wonderful interview on radio Sinoland.

And we’ll have to we’ll have to get back together again. I will put I want to suggest to you before we leave, why don’t you put an article on the dissident voice, maybe so that not everybody is going to want to read Plato and Parallelize and Recidivism and Socrates and all that, maybe do a four or five page summary of a history, you know, a brief history of Greek, Greek direct democracy. I think that would be wonderful.

Moti- Yeah.

Jeff- Uh, you know, from the very beginning until Alexander the Great, uh, I think that would be a wonderful thing to follow up on. I will put your links to veterans today. I will put your links to dissident voice on my website www.fortydays.net.

Moti- Actually, I wanted to make clear that I actually was going to do all that I’ve written about equality and it’s already posted on veterans today. The reason for that.

Jeff- Okay

Moti- But I would add our interview to the article itself. But the reason for that and I know it sounds naive and a little bit stupid maybe, but I wanted to post the article before the Greek. Plebiscite over

Jeff- the referendum.

Moti- And I know there’s nobody, only a few people are going to read it and it’s not the Greek people, but somehow he felt an urgency to put the argument for the Greek people to teach them to try to tell them about the history and to tell them that they should think about it as they should, because it seems to be up to. So I ready. But what I’ll do, I’ll just add the link to our conversation, to that article.

Jeff- Well, unfortunately, there’s another famous quote by a famous leader of Josef Stalin who said that it doesn’t matter who votes, what matters is who counts the votes.

Moti- Absolutely

Jeff- And what I’m afraid is even if they vote for the referee, even if they vote no, they’re going to they’re going to I mean, everybody knows, you know, John F. Kennedy was, you know, was put in to thank goodness, was put into the presidency because they came up with 50000 fictitious votes in Chicago.

So he got so he took Illinois and beat Nixon. So, I mean, you know, elections are historically very, very corrupt, which is another reason why we need to get back, get back to local democracy, direct democracy.

And so, anyway, we’ve it’s just been a fascinating conversation. Let’s do this again in the future. And wonderful to have you on you’re a very deep and broad thinker. And and I think we make a good team as far as stimulating discussion.

Moti- And I wanted to thank you again for inviting me. And yes, let’s do it again. And I enjoyed our conversation as well.

Jeff- Well, enjoy beautiful Patagonia. It’s already it’s already up the vote in Greece is tomorrow, so maybe you can get your article posted before tomorrow.

Moti- No, it’s already posted.

Jeff- OK, well, send me the link and I will put it on my Web site.

Moti- OK, ok, great.

Jeff- OK.

Moti- Have a wonderful day.

Jeff- Yeah. Yeah. Hugs to you and your wife Donna and from Beijing. And um. And we’ll get together soon.

Moti- Ok, thank you. Ok,

Jeff- bye, bye.

###

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Why and How China works: With a Mirror to Our Own History

44 Days Backpacking in China: The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass

China Rising: Capitalist Roads, Socialist Destinations

 

 

 

 

 

 

BIG Red Book on China: Chinese History, Culture and Revolution

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